Speaker A: Hey, writers.
Speaker B: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're **** proud of.
Speaker C: I'm Rachel.
Speaker B: And I'm Emily.
Speaker C: And today we've got a recording of an Instagram live that you, Emily, did with Corey Leje about when art is worth doing.
Speaker D: Yes.
Speaker B: So I just finished up this conversation with Corey yesterday. She is one of my oldest friends. We met in high school doing theater, and she's an actress, a voice actress and a creative strategy coach. She's pretty badass.
Speaker D: And.
Speaker B: We talked forever about when is it worth creating?
Speaker D: Right?
Speaker B: When the world is burning? When you have a thousand responsibilities. Like when is it worth making art? And is it worth it if no one ever sees it? So I talk a lot about my journey, answering these questions for myself, both when I decided to come back into writing and when I left my environmental justice nonprofit job to start Golden May with you.
Speaker D: Yes.
Speaker B: And so this one is for any writers who have ever asked, is my writing even worth it?
Speaker D: Right?
Speaker B: And prepare to learn a lot about me.
Speaker C: It's such a fun chat, so tune in. We've got links to all of Corey's stuff in the show notes, so check those out and make sure that you follow Corey on Instagram because she is awesome and I also love following her.
Speaker D: Yeah, cool.
Speaker B: I'll see you there in the recording.
Speaker A: Enjoy.
Speaker D: Hello. Welcome to another creative chat with fellow creatives. Today is a little different than the last couple. I usually talk to people who are multi passionate actors, but today I'm so excited to have literally one of my BFFs, like, as in legitimately, a BFF from life. We've known each other since we were 14. Emily golden, who is a book coach and an author herself, and we're going to be talking about the importance of art. And even she said this. I'm stealing her words. Even when the world and especially when the world feels like it's burning. So in other words, when things feel like they're not going the way that you not just in your life, but the world globally. There's so much going on. Hi, Emily. She's coming in. Wait for her to join. Anyway, so there we go.
Speaker A: Cool.
Speaker D: Together in a small town in Maine where we both grew up in small towns in Maine, not in the same small town, but we are together a small emily, hi. Welcome.
Speaker A: How are you? Finished your intro. I feel like you were on a roll, and then I was like, oh, it's all good.
Speaker D: No, I'm really just practicing my damping style at the beginning of this thing. It's always so awkward because it's like, I have but I have to wait.
Speaker A: For them to do myself yet. No.
Speaker D: I feel like I should just start doing some kind of, like, interpretive dance at the beginning of these things until because inevitably, my spiel always gets interrupted and I don't know where I am because lack of sleep with newborn and multitasking is not a thing that I'm capable of doing right now. Quick tangent about that. Last night I went out to eat with Ben, my husband, for those who are watching. I know, he was like, okay, do you want to wrap this up to take home? Because we obviously didn't finish. And I looked at him and I was like, yeah.
Speaker A: And he was like, I didn't think.
Speaker D: It literally took me that long to.
Speaker A: Process what you make and meal. Like, girl, I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker D: It really is. Anyway. Hi, Emily.
Speaker A: I'm so excited. I was, like, proud this morning, and it went through a lot of emotions, so I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker D: Well, I'll let you introduce yourself first and kind of tell people about your money.
Speaker A: Hi, Molly. I see you. I am Emily Golden. I am the golden half of Golden May. My business partner is Rachel May, and we are book coaches. And so we work with writers, fiction writers, on how to build their books from the ground up. And we do that through one on one coaching. And then we have a lot of online resources. We have a podcast called Story Magic. So we have our podcast, we've got a blog. We have a pretty awesome email newsletter that goes out regularly where we just talk about writing craft, but also mindset, process, lifestyle tips and tricks and stories and stuff like that. We love helping writers figure out what works for them because there's a lot of bullshit out there about sorry, can I swear on this? Okay? There's a lot of bullshit out there on what writing should look like and how it should be. And we are all about helping writers figure out what works for them at a craft level, at a process level and all of that. So one on one coaching. And then we have our community called Tenacious Writing, which is a lifetime access community that has endless resources on how to write your book, how to build a process that works for you, how to strengthen your mindset, and a community of folks who can give you feedback and support and everything. So, yeah, that's me. And I've been friends with Corey for forever.
Speaker D: Literally more than half of our lives at this point, which is insane to me, but also not. Anyway, also but if you didn't see in The Search, she's the one who gave me this coffee mug, which is coffee. Anyway, so Emily and I decided that we wanted to come on and have a chat because we've been friends for so long. I followed your journey through deciding to become a book coach and deciding to lean into your writing. And writing has always been such a big part of who you are.
Speaker A: I mean, I remember in Facebook, we're.
Speaker D: Working on novels, you were contact, like.
Speaker A: The one person who knew you and my boyfriend. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah.
Speaker D: I remember sitting in your room and like, reading Draft, like the only.
Speaker A: One who looked at stuff so funny. Anyway, continue. I feel so honored now.
Speaker D: But you didn't go to school for writing. You went to school for environmental. What did you actually study? Environmental science.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker D: And for the beginning of your professional young adult life, that's what you leaned into. And I remember the shift, like, when you were toying with the idea of making this shift, there were a lot of emotions there. Can you talk a little bit about what you were struggling with and how you actually decided to make a decision?
Speaker A: The biggest shift came when I decided to write, which was years before I decided to do the business, because I haven't been writing forever. I took a break, a pretty long break. And it's so funny that you remember me writing in high school because that's not a time where I think of myself as writing a lot. We were more doing theater, which was still art, right? And so I kind of loop those two things together in this kind of conversation. Well, it's art. And that was what I lost for a while, was art. And so when I was thinking about it this morning, I was like, yeah, I was a super creative child. We met in high school, but when I was super little, I did all the singing and all the I wrote picture books and I did theater and all that stuff. But I've always, I mean, you know my family, so I love that I get to have this conversation with you because you get it. And I feel like I was taught from a really young age, both intentionally and unintentionally, that selflessness and sacrifice and hustle were the ways that you kind of made yourself worthy. When I think back on kind of how I moved away from art, it was a lot of that where it was like a you have to make money because you're going to have to survive and B you're supposed to sacrifice and hustle and do all these good things in the world in order to be worthy of something. And so I ended up going into environmentalism, which is hilarious because a lot of that was because of your stepdad, who was my science teacher in high.
Speaker D: School.
Speaker A: But through his environmental science class and my grandfather's big on climate change stuff and things like that. I got it in my head at the end of high school, I think that art wasn't sacrificed.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker A: It wasn't like, sacrificial enough and it wasn't reliable, but I think it was both of those things. We talk a lot about how we get pushed away from art because it can't make money. But I think for me, it was also like it's a selfish thing to do because I had mentors telling me I should go to school for theater, which you did do. I don't want to talk about your decision to do that because I didn't do that. Because of all the reasons I just said so in college. I didn't write, I didn't do theater. I didn't do any kind of art. I threw myself into environmental justice stuff and social justice stuff and all of that. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I think I really lost track of who I was. And so when I came out of college, and then I got the degree, I did all the extracurriculars. I got the resume, I got the job. And I was working at an environmental nonprofit with, like, a secure salary. It wasn't a lot of money. I don't know what part of me thought that I would make a lot of money in environmentalized. Literally, I was like, oh, environmental consultants make money. You don't want to do that. But I had this stable job. Like, I had done the thing, and then I just like I don't know. It was a summer, I think, where I was just like, what now? Who am I anymore? I did the thing, but it doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel the way I thought that it would. I feel like I'm talking a lot. Anyway, before I keep going no, please keep going. So this is what I was thinking about this morning, because that summer is so vivid in my head. I had the job, and I started biking. I started biking to work, which is like, 12 miles of this really pretty countryside. And while I was biking, I would listen to podcasts. And so one of the things that I discovered you probably remember me discovering Brene Brown, because I was very into it, but I think I was drawn to her conversations about vulnerability and owning yourself, because I wasn't doing that. And so I was just, like, consuming all of her stuff, and I didn't really know why. And I came across her interview with Elizabeth Gilbert on Magic Lessons, which is a podcast that Elizabeth did, like, two seasons of or something like a billion years ago. And I found that episode, and it was all about creativity. And I remember being like, oh, my God, I miss being creative. For, like, weeks. In the back of my mind, I was like, you could start writing a story again if you wanted. And I was like, no, that's stupid fantasy is dumb. It's 2016. It was literally 2016. The world was, like, falling apart. No one knew what was going to happen. I was like, Why would I so dumb? And then I listened to this one podcast, and I pulled it up this morning. I started listening to it, and I was, like, crying again because it's just so good. Do you mind if I breathe? Okay. So basically, she was talking elizabeth Gilbert was talking to this woman named Joe who wanted to be have you ever listened to this? Did I ever send it to you? She wanted to be a comedy. She wanted to be a comedian.
Speaker D: You might have.
Speaker A: And instead she became a Holocaust researcher. She basically had burned herself out getting her PhD in Holocaust research. And she was like, All I want to do is write comedy. But that seems so dumb. Gilbert was, like, talking her through this. I pulled this quote because it just like it punches me. So this is Elizabeth Gilbert talking. And she said, Oftentimes I talk to people who feel a sort of general underlying vibrational sense of malaise, and they're sort of walking around in a mist with their hands outstretched, looking for something to grab a hold to in the middle of this just misty soup of confusion. You don't have that. She said to Joe. She said, you don't just have a calling, you have a screaming. Because this woman knew she wanted to be a comedian. And I was just like, this is me. I'm just walking around in a midst of super confusion. That was the moment when I started to think like, I have to do something for me. I've spent six years building my life, but that's not the same as building me, right? And so I have more notes on what she said, but I think we're probably going to get to it. I want to give you a chance because did you ever have that? I feel like you have always been following your creativity, but I'm sure that you've had ups and downs of what that looked like.
Speaker D: Oh, yeah. So I think just like what you were saying, how your parents and the environment you were raised in influenced you. Obviously, I think everybody would say that that's true for them. And the things that really resonated with me from my childhood funny that I'm having this conversation. My mom is literally outside this story now.
Speaker A: I have no idea if she's listening.
Speaker D: She's watching my littlest one. Anyway, my dad always spewed the find a job you love and never work another day mentality on me, which I know some people have a love hate relationship with it. I personally love that expression. I don't think it means that it's not going to feel like work in the sense that you have effort behind it and passion. But I think the idea being, if you're passionate about something, that hard work is still joyful and it can still light you up. And that's how I feel about acting and coaching, storytelling and filmmaking. Where was I going with this? So I always knew that acting was part of my life, and I never really swayed from that. But I wasn't always sure that I wanted to pursue it professionally. I did study it in school, but I knew, like, biology, and I also I'm just going to do all the things I also got certified as An elementary.
Speaker A: Do we remember this?
Speaker D: I'm covering my faces. That's what I was doing. Because I didn't know. I didn't even know if I wanted to even try to pursue acting professionally until I think I made the decision, like my senior year. And it was because of my college boyfriend Enon. He was two years older than me, and so he graduated my sophomore year. And he and his brother immediately went to pursue acting. Then we broke up. And I'm not going to lie. There was a part, like a vindictive part of me that was like, if.
Speaker A: They can do it of course there was. I Know.
Speaker D: So I didn't really decide that I was going to pursue acting until my senior year of acting. Senior year of college? And then I never looked back. Once. I was in it. I was in it. But of course, there are ups and downs and there are always times when I'm like the enoughness question is always there. Am I enough? Am I doing enough? Am I talented enough? Am I young enough still? I'm in my 30s now. Is it too late? For me? It's not. But every now and then you get that little devil's voice in the back of your head that's telling you But I have a very similar experience of falling away from, and then coming back to ironically writing as you do. I also wrote children's books as a young child before we knew each other. And I don't know if you remember this, but I did like, a writing competition when we were in high school. It was like a small, little writing. I'm sure you don't remember. It was, like, tiny. But I wish I never had done that competition because it was devastating. That was me in college, that I.
Speaker A: Auditioned for and didn't get into. Yes.
Speaker D: Destroys you right. As soon as you open yourself up and you don't get the validation that your tiny little broken ego needs, it can be devastating. And that's why I hate competitions around art now. Because that did it for me. There were like, I forget how many entrants. And it was a competition. I had to be invited to even participate in this. So that should have been enough to validate me and be like I got excited. When you do this competition, that means something, right? Not only did I not win, which is, like, what I was hoping for. One of my friends did win. Like, the whole thing. She won the first place, and I didn't even place I didn't even call back in, like the top 10% or whatever. Right? Exactly.
Speaker A: Yeah. There was a girl that I met. It was, like, the first week of school. And this girl that I met, she's like I've never done theater before. And I was like, I've done all the theater. And then she got in and I did it. And I was like, well, I guess I'm done with you. It's horrible.
Speaker D: It's horrible.
Speaker A: That's interesting. I didn't know that about the writing.
Speaker D: Yeah, and I didn't come back to any form of writing. I mean, I took a creative writing class later in high school that was apparently, like, the joke class, and I didn't realize that I ended up being people who just wanted to fill an elective and didn't care. And I was like, I actually care about this class. And then that was the last creative writing I did until after college. I was in New York. I did The Artist's Way, thinking that it would be a fun thing to do for my acting and all of the things that kept coming up for me.
Speaker A: That's funny, because The Artist Way was part of my coming back to writing too, because you said it to me. Because I was like, I think I might start writing again. And you were like, Heard this book, and then I remember, yeah, I want to talk yeah, continue. I want to come back to that because I want to talk about the justice stuff and the World's burning, but continue before we get no, I was almost there.
Speaker D: The idea being like the artist's way. I went into it totally not expecting I was like, I don't need to heal. I am living an artist's life. Like, I am artistically fulfilled. And then I was like, I was writing all these books. It's just like, everything that kept coming up was about writing, and I'm like, I'm an actor. And that was part of how I came to embrace the multi, passionate title that I now wear with pride. And writing is part of that. It's not necessarily the long novels I imagined I would be writing as a child. Now it's more in the vein of screenwriting storytelling. It fits my style of writing way better. Yeah, I mean, storytelling is storytelling, and writing is writing just the different forms of expressing that same story, novel writing. I'm about to do The Artist Lane again, as you know, so maybe that.
Speaker A: Oh, man, I love The Artist Lame.
Speaker D: Yeah.
Speaker A: Okay, let's talk about the World burning, because that's about my big gosh, it's so hard. And the number of times that I hear people who are like, it's so hard to I work with fiction writers exclusively. Right. So they're making stuff up. It's not like nonfiction writers who are doing that's a whole other thing. But with fiction stories, I think it's oftentimes we can convince ourselves that it's frivolous and kind of dumb and doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of what's going on. Because the novels that I work with, we spend a lot of time writing every day. It's a big chunk of our day. And there can be these questions, especially with folks who are really empathetic and in tune with the suffering of the world, that that time could be spent on other things and it can make your writing feel silly. And that's totally where I was at, because I think I had just sort of started writing again when you sent me The Artist Way. And I will never forget that one activity where she has you write like, I wish and then just write down what comes to your mind and you're supposed to write it like 20 times or however many times. And I was like, this is dumb. I know what I wish. And then I started writing it, and I just spiraled into this deep sense of like, I just wish I didn't have all this weight on my shoulders, like, that I could just do what I want to do and explore what I want to explore and not feel this pressure to fix things. At this point, I was deep in the climate conversation, like, fix something that's not my fault, right, and that no one else seems to care about. And so it was like this awakening of, I can undo those. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. Like, I can write and I can have fun and I can be frivolous. We'll come back to that and work on justice. And I would argue that you need both of those things. You can't just fight because then you forget what you're fighting for. And I think that that is so important. And that was one of the other quotes that I wanted to pull from this episode. So the episode that everyone should listen to is called You Have a Calling. You have a screaming, not a Calling. And it's on the magic Lessons podcast. And Liz Gilbert was talking about this Jack Gilbert poem about the world suffering, and it kind of goes through all the ways that people are suffering in the world. And then he says, if we deny our happiness and resist our satisfaction, we lessen the importance of their deprivation, right? So if we're not living a life that's worth saving, then we lessen the importance of saving them. And I thought that was so brilliant, because this is what I tell my writers all the time, is like, you have to be whole in order to help others.
Speaker D: You have to be.
Speaker A: And creativity is like an essential thing. If you aren't fueling it and feeding it in whatever way is right for you, a part of you diminishes. And that makes it more and more difficult to do that work that you want to do for others, whether it's parenting or whether it's teaching or whether it's fighting for racial justice or against climate change or things like that, right? You can't do that work if you're not whole. I've lived it and I wholeheartedly believe it. And that's kind of when it comes to the business shift, that was what I had to really remind myself. Not tell myself, but remind myself. It's like, this work is important. I'm helping make writers whole, and they are sharing. We could also go into art changes people, right? And so it's important. But I think what I have come to learn is it changes you and it makes you more whole and that makes you more available to show up. And I just this episode is so good. I'm so glad I relisted to it. This morning I was like, oh my God, you're so right.
Speaker D: Sobbing I'll be sure to include the name and all of that info in the caption.
Speaker A: And you know who anybody Jones is? She's an actress. She's a comedian who has many personalities that she inhabits. She's amazing. So on the podcast, Liz interviews these normal folks about their art issues and then she invites a guest, like a professional artist guest on and Sarah Jones is the guest. I think it's Sarah Jones as the guest for that episode. And so you have two comedians and Liz.
Speaker D: So it's also hilarious.
Speaker A: It's so good.
Speaker D: I love it. I love it. I'm literally going to go listen to it right now. So you said you wanted to come back to Frivolous.
Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's multifilled, right? What I was just talking about. And then it's not frivolous because it's fueling you and your life and making you a whole human being, but it's also not frivolous because people need art. We need it. I like to think back to COVID. What did you do during COVID Yeah, what did you do? Right? Question.
Speaker D: I watched Tiger King and a million other shows, the Office, for the first.
Speaker A: Time, which I have now watched, but.
Speaker D: That'S a million times.
Speaker A: I know that's everybody's ex.
Speaker D: Okay.
Speaker A: We know. But anyway yeah, you watch. Evan.
Speaker D: I like to say that I think that obviously this is true, but, like, Tiger King's producers definitely caused COVID because there's no way it ever would have been that popular if it had come out at any other time. But it was like COVID was like, the perfect time for it to come out and it just exploded. But yeah, that's the point. We read books, we watched TV and movies. People made art. People start like, I can't tell you how many people.
Speaker A: All of us is called, like, documentary of his COVID experience. We all connected with that. We wrote, we consumed art, kept us literally sane. Literally kept us sane. And I like to bring that up because Rachel and I talk a lot about how art has the power to change people, which I deeply believe is true. Right? When fiction writers come to write a story, they have a message they want to share through their character's journey. And that by living through a character's journey, your reader can go and experience that change as well, right? We can learn to empathize with things that we don't experience. We can learn change our minds about things. You can literally change the world with your art, but you don't have to for it to be important. And I think COVID is a great example, right? People need escape. We need joy, we need laughter. It alleviates pain. It helps us remind us we're not alone. Right? There's a million reasons why we consume art. And there's a reason that the romance industry is so freaking huge, because love has a power over people to keep us, to keep our heads up of water in times that are really hard. And so whatever your art is, I don't even care. It's important. And also, if you're making art and it's just for you and you're not showing it to anyone else, but it fulfills you, that's also important, right? So it's not frivolous on any of the levels. It can change people. It can make people's lives better, and it can change you. And that's enough.
Speaker D: Sorry, I'm back. Did I disappear?
Speaker A: I was like, she's really feeling feelings.
Speaker D: No, I have a time limit on my instagram. And it was like, you've reached your time limit.
Speaker A: I'm like, I don't care. Give me back in there. That's so funny. No worries. I can wait.
Speaker D: Sorry, but no, that's so true. There are so many reasons that art is important. And like you were saying, whether or not it's I think that it's important. I'm really terrible. I should have prepped more like your precious I never think that this morning.
Speaker A: Gilbert like podcast and I need to be prepared.
Speaker D: I think this is Gilbert as well. I don't want to be wrong, though, so I'm not going to say with 100% certainty that this is Gilbert. But there was somebody like Elizabeth Gilbert, if not Elizabeth Gilbert herself, who talks.
Speaker A: About I'm pretty sure it is, because.
Speaker D: I'm pretty sure it's from Big Madfic, but talks about the fact that.
Speaker A: She.
Speaker D: Creates for herself and if other people get value from that wonderful and amazing, and that's important, but the initial creation is for her. And I was like, I still feel this even with art sometimes, that it's like, okay, but what's the big societal message? Why am I making this? What big important thing am I leaning into? And then I was literally thinking about this last night as I was going to bed, because there's a short that I wrote years ago that we haven't made yet because I'm still tinkering with it, and because it would be an expensive short to make. So we just haven't gone there yet. But it addresses some very sensitive topics, like assisted suicide and I'm like, if I make this film, am I sending the message that I am either supportive of or against this very hot topic in the medical world? And do I want to tie myself with that messaging? And then I was like, Or I'm just telling a story about two people and their experience, and it can just be that. And maybe it is a conversation starter, or maybe it isn't, but maybe I can just tell the story. That my soul is telling me to tell, and that's okay. And whatever comes from it, comes from it. But I think it's important to know the impact that your art can have before you're releasing it, but not during the creation process.
Speaker A: Yeah, it can be. And I think this also comes to there's the importance of the impact of the message. Right. But there's also the reach.
Speaker D: Right.
Speaker A: I have a lot of writers who get hung up on, is it worth writing this story if I don't know if anyone will ever choose me to publish it? Right. And writing the book with the main goal of getting it being chosen to have it be published is a really fast way to send yourself into burnout. You have to find that reason why you're writing it for you and make that the primary motivator. Because if external validation is that motivator, it's just going to be a miserable time. But yeah, I totally agree. I love that.
Speaker D: It'S the same. I mean, I see that with screenwriters and actors, too. Screenwriters first, because it's the easier comparison is that if I write this movie, will someone make it, or will I be able to get financing for it? Will film festivals like it? Will it find an audience? Like, will I get distribution, will I make money from it? Or even will I be able to make it? Because is it too expensive to have this shot? And so let's not do that shot. Let's do something different. And I find myself falling into that all the time because I call it like producer brain versus writer brain. And I have to take producer Brain and I have to put producer brain away and just write the story that needs to happen. And then when that story is then finished and ready to go forward, okay, then producer brain can come back. And if some things need to be tweaked, then that's when that happens. But it's not when the idea is a baby and being created informed. And let's get the idea to at least late teens and then push them.
Speaker A: Into the real world and see what happens. I think my cat but might be drinking from the toilet. Which one? Whatever. Anyway.
Speaker D: Well, I can talk to you forever, Emily, but I want to be respectful of your time, too. We should definitely do this again because.
Speaker A: We should also be talking to the Time forever newborn.
Speaker D: Before we go, I want to ask you, what can people watching this do to support you and what resources do you have for people?
Speaker A: I've got my one on one coaching program is called Story Magic. You can find basically everything about me on Goldenmayediting.com. And I'm sure you'll put that in notes somewhere. But yeah, you can find me on Instagram at emilyagoldenedits. And you can find some free resources from me on the blog, on my website, our email list. Me and Rachel's email list is also linked on the website. We've got a couple of free resources on the website. We have a seven day email course on how to make a character arc, and we also have a free downloadable keys guide to scene structure, and both of those are on the website. We have our podcast called Story Magic, and then we have our community called Tenacious Writing, which has craft mindset and community resources for writers. It's basically everything that you need to build a writing life that fulfills you and you can find [email protected] awesome.
Speaker D: Well, thanks for chatting, Emily. It's been awesome. I will obviously tag you in this and we'll post it everywhere. So if you're just joining now, don't worry, you'll be able to catch the replay.
Speaker A: Tell me mommy said hi.
Speaker D: Hang on.
Speaker B: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
Speaker C: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character X. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
Speaker B: Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.
Speaker A: Bye, you.
