[00:13] Rachel: Hey writers.
[00:14] Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book.
[00:17] Rachel: You'Re damn proud of. I'm Rachel.
[00:19] Emily: And I'm Emily.
[00:20] Rachel: And today we have a guest speaker with us. We're speaking with Emma Desi today about theme and how it relates to story and character. I'm so excited about this chat.
[00:30] Emily: Welcome, Emma.
[00:32] Emma: Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here. It's lovely to see you guys again.
[00:36] Rachel: We're so excited.
[00:37] Emily: We love talking to Emma. We've done several interviews with her over the years.
[00:42] Rachel: I know Emma is she's a book.
[00:45] Emily: Coach and an author. And I would love to invite you, Emma, to just to tell listeners kind of who you are and what you do and what you're passionate about.
[00:53] Rachel: Yay.
[00:54] Emma: Oh, thank you. Yeah, so I am Scottish, as you can maybe tell. So I'm on the other side of the pond and I have been writing for a long, long time now, like a lot of people sort of delving in and out ever since I was a child. And the itch would come and I'd start writing and maybe join a class or two in a workshop and then get all excited, and then the workshop would finish and a couple of weeks later my energy and enthusiasm for the project would wane a bit. But it kept coming back. It kept coming back and it wasn't until I sort of was reaching my forty th that the itch came back. And I thought to myself, do you know what? I'm fed up with this. Either I write this book and get it done, or I just let this go and move on. Move on to something new and fresh that I genuinely want to do. So I thought, okay, let's just set the goal that I'm going to write a first draft, beginning to end, and see how it goes. And if I enjoy it, fantastic, carry on revise. If it's horrible, painful, just that not the experience I thought it was going to be. And I never want to do it again. Then I never have to do it again. But at least I will know one way or the other. So luckily for me, I did enjoy it. It was fun, it was challenging. It took me a long, long time. It took me five years to write that first story, and I had three preschoolers at the time, so it really was writing in bits and pieces. But one of the wonderful things about what that taught me was that if I do just a little bit, but regularly, then I'll get to the end of the project. It taught me that I do have some longevity because I always saw myself as not really being a finisher. But that was something I learned. I could finish something, I could proceed with it, I could stick with something and enjoy and enjoy the challenge. Because some things in life are challenging and not fun, but this challenge I did particularly enjoy. So that was great. So I carried on, revising, revising, revising, and eventually published it and then went on to publish two more that are I call contemporary women's fiction, but very dark, dark contemporary fiction. But what that did for me was it made me see myself in a new light, because at that point in my life, I was sort of look in the mirror and say, gosh look at you. You're a middle aged mum. That's it. Your best years are behind you. But actually writing the book, the first one particularly, it was like, gosh, do you know what? I've still got more to offer. There's still new things I haven't explored yet. My life is not over. I might be a mum and I might be middle aged, but I'm not over yet. And that was really transformational for me, because if I hadn't done that, then I wouldn't have written the other books, I wouldn't have started coaching, I wouldn't have started my podcast, and I wouldn't have met you lovely ladies. It's just one thing kind of snowballed into another, which I think is one of the lovely things about finding something you enjoy, particularly a creative endeavor. I remember quite early on deciding, I want to help other women do this and other women realize that, yeah, maybe you've got kids, maybe you are an empty nester and you feel that that magic has passed you by, or you know that the moment to write a novel has passed you by. The natural fact it's not at all and sometimes the right time for you to delve in and do it. So I knew that that was something that I wanted to do. And so I studied story, I learned a lot, and through doing my podcast and talking to other coaches and writers, I've learned and studied a lot and then became a coach myself. And I love working, particularly with debut novelists, because that's the biggest I think the biggest milestone or the biggest hurdle is getting that first one written. And once you're there, you then kind of find your feet a bit and you've got a bit more confidence to go on and write that next one if you want to. So that's what's taken me to it. I work with a book coach myself and have made a switch, which is fun. So my women's fiction was very dark, not everyone's cup of tea. And I realized, you know what? I think I needed to write those stories and get them out there. Yeah, but actually, why not embrace that dark side? And so I've moved into psychological thriller.
[05:24] Rachel: And I've got my I love it.
[05:26] Emily: That is, like, not what I would have expected you to say, that you write I love it so much.
[05:32] Rachel: I know, that's awesome.
[05:35] Emily: But I've heard this from a few.
[05:36] Emma: Other writers as well, that they start off in one genre and then realize actually their heart and the style that comes out of them is in another genre, and so they embrace that and go for it.
[05:51] Rachel: I think if you write the same.
[05:52] Emily: Type of stories for long enough, then you just need something new, something fresh.
[06:01] Emma: An evolution, isn't it?
[06:04] Rachel: Yeah.
[06:05] Emily: There's so much I love about that story.
[06:09] Rachel: Specifically, I love the audience that you're speaking to. I am also a mom. I have a two and a half year old. She's going to be three in a couple of months. But I know, and I have already felt that there's this narrative for women that once you have kids, that's it, you did it, you achieved your life's purpose, which is a lot to unpack. Right. Obviously for womenhood in general. But then as your kids grow older and they move out, then what? And it's always like, that's the narrative of, like, you're done. And men don't have that narrative of they get to have their whole rest of their life. But once women raise their children, like, their purpose is concluded and whatever oh, sorry, I was going to say, I love that you're speaking to this group of people that can do whatever they want and that they can write books and they can be creative, and life doesn't end at children or after children. You are still a whole complete person that can have hopes and dreams and visions and pursue them with fervor and passion. I love that. I love that you're helping and speaking.
[07:19] Emily: To those people, inspiring to folks who want to have children as well and who fear right, that's giving up. Oh, no. Once I have kids, I won't have time to do any of the things. The story of starting in the midst of that is just so powerful and exciting. And I love how you framed it as, I'm going to try this thing and I'm going to reach the end, and then I'm going to decide, because writing is so difficult. And that is, like you said, it's the biggest milestone, is finishing that first book. And until you've written those words, you don't really know if it's for you or not. We could go down so many tangents.
[08:04] Rachel: But we're here to talk about theme.
[08:07] Emma: I know. So where should we start with theme?
[08:11] Emily: Why don't you tell us why you brought this to us? Why this theme for the episode?
[08:16] Rachel: This theme for this episode.
[08:19] Emma: Because it's something that's on my mind a lot, and it's something I talk to my students about a lot. And it's a tricky one. I think it's actually quite a hard concept to grasp, especially for those first maybe one, two, three books. Certainly I should speak from my own experience. I found it hard, and because I work with first time novelists, I've noticed that they also find it hard. So I'm kind of pleased that I don't think it was just me, because I'd heard about you know, I'd hear people talk about it and I'd read about it in blog posts and in craft books. I have to admit it got to a point where I would just skip over that chapter and just next one. I didn't quite know what to do there. It didn't feel sort of concrete. It felt very abstract in my mind, not actionable. So I thought it was just an interesting topic to bring and maybe your listeners will have some thoughts about it and it might give them, if they're not including it already, just another way of kind of deepening their story if they're at that stage in their writing.
[09:24] Emily: Yeah.
[09:25] Emma: So maybe I could start with my sort of interpretation of what I would.
[09:29] Emily: Love that I was going to suggest it. I was like, I bet we all have different definitions of what well, the.
[09:35] Emma: Pen brought for me when I was mentored by Jay Thorne, who's a writer and coach and has a fantastic community. He's a horror writer, so completely different to me and has many podcasts. And he described it to me as, what is it you're trying to say about life with this book? For me, that made sense, that felt concrete, definite, firm, and that's something I could think about then. I didn't have an answer. I didn't know what I was trying to say about life at that time, but it just gave me something to ponder on. I did for a long time. But it sowed that seed of what it could be. And after that, I no longer avoided those blog posts or that chapter about that subject, but could kind of start to delve into it and try and look for it in other people's writing and sort of think about, okay, what do I think that that writer was trying to say? It's probably totally different to what the writer was actually trying to say, but what would be my interpretation of that? So I don't know if that fits in with your thought of what theme is.
[10:45] Rachel: Yeah, pretty close. I'd say we like to think about theme or at least what made it click for me because I feel like I have a very similar of this is very nebulous. I don't really understand. In our school system, we would do book reports and have to decide this is what the themes of this book are. And it was very sterile. I don't know if that's the right word, but it was always like, tell me the themes of Pride and Prejudice and you'd be like, I don't know, love. And you just kind of label it with words and all of a sudden that's your book report. But it never same way that you said clicked of how do you create that or what does that look like or how does this become integrated into a novel, which I know we're going to talk about. So when we first learned about the idea of a story point, which is essentially a thematic statement about what you believe about the world or how the world should be. That's when it clicked for me, because it took an idea like love or class, and it brought it to love can overcome the obstacles of class. And then you have like, oh, that's what my book is about. So I like to have the story point or the theme. The way I think of it is like the elevator pitch for your book. The one line sentence of this is what my book is about. It's about overcoming the obstacles of class by falling in love, which was the story point of Pride and Prejudice. That's why we came back to that. But yeah, so that's my interpretation of it. It's very much what the author is trying to say about what they believe about the world.
[12:22] Emily: That's so interesting because I've always thought of story point and theme is slightly different, basically how you just described it, that themes are, in the way I think about it, are like those broader stroke kind of topics that you're dealing with. So in your example, love and family and class are the themes and the story point. The thematic statement that you're exploring is, like, connects all those themes together into one sort of sentence about, like, you said something you want to say about life. So that's really fascinating because I had a client once asked me kind of, is it okay if I have multiple themes? And I was like, well, you kind of have to because your thematic statement in the way that I define it, right. Your thematic statement contains several different themes that you're exploring. But the reason that I like thinking about it that way is because I feel like the story point is the way we teach it is that core lesson that your character is going to learn. It's that core thing that you're trying to say to readers and the takeaway you want them to have. But in that, your story is so much more complex than that one statement.
[13:36] Rachel: Right.
[13:37] Emily: You're exploring Pride and Prejudice explores all kinds of angles about class. It explores all kinds of angles about love. And so I kind of like having that flexibility between the specific story point, which is actionable you can do something with that, versus the themes, which I think if you don't have a story point yet, all you have to work with is theme.
[13:58] Rachel: Right?
[13:58] Emily: Like, I'm just starting a new book right now, and I don't know who my message is. I don't know what my point is yet. And so all I have to work with is these kind of themes that my gut is saying, we're exploring these Emily. So I don't know if that's useful, but that's kind of how I've always looked at it. Yeah, that's interesting.
[14:19] Emma: Yeah, I hadn't thought about sort of dividing it up in that way. And having the story point of the statement and then having the themes as being separate and being multiple of them have to this part up until now, and maybe I'll change after our conversation. But I've seen them, yeah, very much as the one thing that there is one theme and one statement that are connected and they are the driving force for that novel. And it's the protagonist that is driving that forward. But maybe just thinking about it, maybe if you are writing of Fire and whatever it's called Game of Thrones. When you've got something as massive as that and you've got a lot of protagonist characters and they maybe each have their own theme or story point that they're working towards. But certainly for your standard novel, I kind of thought that they were one and the same. But it's interesting that to hear you kind of talk about it as being two different things, I'll be pondering on that. Yeah, you have multiple themes in a book. So if we stick with Pride and Prejudice and Class, would the different characters have different themes, kind of they'd bring the different themes to it, or that kind of protagonist brings those many different themes to the story. Do you think so?
[15:45] Emily: Pride and Prejudice is a great example because we have Charlotte Lucas, right? Because Charlotte Lucas contradicts the story. Point. Because if the story point is love can overcome the obstacles of class, charlotte doesn't. She marries for money, for stability, for safety. Right. And so I feel like the way that I would kind of describe that is I feel like Jane Austen is exploring themes of what does love mean in a world divided by class? And what does those bigger life questions of how do we navigate love in a world of class and how do we overcome that? And because of having the freedom to look at the more abstract pieces of it, she can create a character like Charlotte Lucas who is in direct contradiction to that, to add complexity to the story. I can't remember what your direct question was. I lost it. But I do think it allows for some more of that exploration of what you're trying to say, of the intersection, maybe between the themes that show up in your story point.
[16:54] Emma: Oh, interesting. Yeah. But I guess then they all ultimately lead to did they ultimately lead to that story point?
[17:03] Rachel: I think so. That would be like the goal is that you have I used this metaphor with one of the members of our tenacious writing community a couple of days ago. I like to think of story point and theme as like a dance floor where everybody's dancing to the same music, but everybody has a different dance and everybody's feeling different things, and they may be, like, moving their body in different ways, but it's all the same music. So in that metaphor, the music may be the story point, but the individual people may be the themes and the characters that are moving around the dance floor to that music.
[17:45] Emma: I like that. That's a lovely metaphor. Yeah. Visualize that. I can visualize.
[17:50] Emily: Yeah, that's really useful. That's really useful.
[17:53] Rachel: Stuck in my head from one of the questions that we received in that community for anybody listening in. The story point idea is taught by Lisa Kron. I don't think we mentioned that in her book Story Genius. So I wanted to call that out. That's a fantastic book. Go check it out. And then we like to adopt and adapt that idea to work with our clients.
[18:15] Emma: Yeah, I can echo that on my shelf behind. I love it. Think it's about the best approach to starting a novel that's out there.
[18:25] Emily: Totally.
[18:26] Emma: Do you find that you well, I know that you don't, Emily, because you're still figuring out your story points. But what about you, Rachel? Do you find that you have the story point in your head before you start with theme?
[18:44] Rachel: Sometimes for me it's a little cyclical, so sometimes I'll start with like so I'm writing a fantasy romance right now and I knew I wanted to talk about insecurity and vulnerability and love and failure, like perfectionism, and talking about the idea of not being enough. So I knew I had those and I knew I had a story point that I wanted to start with of love is being vulnerable with all your insecurities. Something like that. And as I wrote the book, I think the themes have stayed really solid because I know that's what I wanted to talk about. But I continued to refine the story point until and I feel I feel I'm still doing that work. I'm in the middle of the 2.5 ish draft. I'm just about to hit the all is lost moment, which is the structure beat and Save the Cat, where it's the character's big failures. And I think that is a very important moment to show you what message you're trying to say. Because once your characters hit their failure moment, they then have to learn something from it and what they're learning is your message. So I'm wrapping this into our conversation because I think it's tough to know exactly what it is your characters are learning, exactly what that message is that you're trying to say until you've put your characters through it. So I'm getting to that point and I think I'll do another revision of my story point after that. But it still will contain those themes of love and failure and perfectionism and insecurity and vulnerability and how to truly fall in love with someone. You have to bear that. You have to be open about that. You need to share that with them and find acceptance of that vulnerability. So we'll see where I refite it to. But does that answer your question? I think they kind of go back and forth and they inform one another.
[20:42] Emma: Yeah, I think that's been my experience. And maybe it sounds like, Emily, that's been your experience as well, but certainly that's been well, actually, I'm trying it differently this time. So the book that fingers crossed come out later this year, that one, I was exactly the same. I was kind of almost yeah, I was definitely on the last round of revisions for it. And my coach, who's an author accelerator coach, so she's very much in Lisa Cron's world, she kept saying to me, you got to think about this. What are you trying to say in this book? What's the point? And I couldn't think about it for Angies, but it was literally back of the brain stuff where one day I just had this epiphany about what it was, but I'm not sure at that point. Anyway, I could have thought about that ahead of time, which I have been advised to do. And I'd say, I guess Lisa Cron even says that ideally, in an ideal world, you have that figured out ahead of time. But at that stage, no, I couldn't have done that. I had to tell myself the story exactly and get to know the character a bit more and really sort of flesh out all the problems that she was having and all of her insecurities and the things that were going wrong to realize what it was that she was trying to overcome. But this time I've started a new manuscript and this time I've worked out ahead of time because I've been following the book. So we'll see how it pans out and if it stays the same or if in fact it maybe changes as things revise. I hope not.
[22:14] Rachel: I know I hope not, but probably sorry.
[22:20] Emily: Yeah. Because I feel like when I think of it, I think it's really difficult. Not personally. I don't know if it's possible to write a book without having some kind of thematic statement, even if it's not intentional. Because you're having characters who are making choices, like characters who believe certain things, who are making choices based on those beliefs. And those beliefs have consequences.
[22:44] Rachel: Right.
[22:44] Emily: So whatever consequences you give their actions kind of says something about what you believe about life. And so it might be like really muddied. You might have several of them, but I think it's kind of difficult not to have, especially if we think of theme in terms of overarching stuff like that kind of stuff slips in. Is it a story about family? Is it a story about love? Right. And then kind of what are you showing the reader about that? So I think ultimately, if writers are like, I don't have a point, and I'm like, halfway through my book or whatever, I haven't thought about this, I think that's okay because your subconscious is trying to say something through your story. And even if you don't start the book with it, eventually you're going to get there because you're going to kind of figure out what your characters, what journey of change they're going on and what they need to learn to change.
[23:38] Rachel: Right.
[23:38] Emily: Because change comes from our beliefs. So I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think you have to have it from the beginning and I also think that it's impossible to have it from the beginning. You know what I mean? It's good to have direction, but you're not going to know exactly what you're trying to say until like Rachel said, you get to that ending point where you've said it.
[24:06] Emma: Certainly that's why I encourage my students to do I attract panthers. So they are people like me who are just working this out as they go along. And so that's why I do sort of say give them that freedom. I don't talk to them about theme or story points until after they finish that first draft and then we go back and we look at outlining story and saying, okay, so what do you think that you're trying to say with your book? And often they're flumming spy and it does take quite a bit of time to kind of go and have a think about it. And we can have one coaching call that that's all we talk about is what is the story about and trying to wheedle it down to something very, very specific to that character and that character's life and what's happened to them and what it is that they personally need to overcome. Because the more specific we can be with it, then the more universal it is in that paradoxical way.
[25:01] Rachel: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought in Process because I was thinking the exact same thing as Far because I consider myself on the Panther side of the spectrum but have always really struggled with putting things in place like a story point and a plot before I got writing. And I think some of this has to do with how your brain works and how your brain approaches the writing and the idea process and getting things out on the page. And in our coaching program, story Point is almost the first thing that we do for any writer. But there's like a value in knowing what you're aiming for and also very much knowing that you may pivot four or five times throughout the process. If you start with I'm speaking now from Panther experience, but we do this with our with our clients, at least if I know like I'm talking about love and vulnerability and perfectionism. That's like something to aim for even if I haven't written that draft. And I need to write that draft to explore what it is I'm actually trying to say about those things because I agree. I don't think that you necessarily need the perfect story point statement or thematic statement before you start writing the book. I do think that it's going to change, but there's a reason that that's one of the very first things that we do in our coaching program is because you don't have to. Because actually the next question I was going to ask you is do you need one? Do you need a thematic statement? But before we get to that, there's a focus and direction it can give you even if you have 1000 different paths you could take, even if, you know, it might be one of these ten. Like that at least is a focused direction for you to go versus the other 990 that are not right.
[26:48] Emily: But I think it's really fascinating too. You just said that you attract Panthers who are working on their first stories, right?
[26:56] Rachel: And I feel like, Rachel, we attract.
[26:57] Emily: A lot of people who come with stories they've been working on for a long time, whether they finished a draft or not. It's something that they have been mowing.
[27:06] Rachel: Right.
[27:06] Emily: They've done that exploratory work. And so we do hit hard on this point when we're working with clients because oftentimes there's something in there that they've already explored, that they're trying to say. And as I'm working with clients who are starting new stories, like their second stories with me, and we're starting from square one, it's a very interesting process because it is very difficult to figure out what you're trying to say before you even know who your characters are and what you're exploring and all of these other things. So it's kind of opened my eyes to, I think, the usefulness of thinking about theme as something broader as well. My second book in my series is going to deal with how my character is going to manage power.
[27:50] Rachel: Right?
[27:50] Emily: Now she has power. She got power in the first book and now she has to learn how to use it. Right. That's not a story point, but it's a direction.
[27:57] Rachel: Right?
[27:57] Emily: It's themes of power, themes of responsibility, themes of leadership. Right. And so we can start to explore some of that in characterization and just exploratory stuff. But it is process is so important and it's important to know just because a tool exists in a craft book at a certain stage in the journey doesn't mean that that tool needs to be used at that point in the journey. Right?
[28:23] Emma: Yeah.
[28:25] Emily: And I think new writers can want that direction and there's nothing wrong with that, right? When you're coming at something new and you're trying to figure out how to do the thing right, having that direction. But it's not a rule. There are no rules.
[28:42] Emma: But I think what you've said there, both of you actually, I think just thinking about, okay, so how would somebody start approaching having a story point or a theme? How do you even figure what that out is? But I think that your description of theme, your definition of theme, I think that is a great way to start. So if someone is contemplating a. Story or is stuck halfway through a story and doesn't know what's going to happen next, then being thinking about what those bigger themes are might just help unstick the writer and help them move on, and then as they finish, then kind of narrow it down and get more specific. But it does feel I just do remember, and to a degree, I suppose I still do, it does feel a little bit scary, maybe, about trying to or you feel or I certainly felt, oh, am I am I being a professional writer here? Am I being a proper writer if I don't have this? But I think you can still write a book. Well, maybe this is unprempting your question, but I still think you can write a manuscript anyway without it. But it adds something to the story if you have that, I think, yeah.
[29:49] Rachel: Well, let's talk about that, because we've kind of touched on do you need one? And I think we've gotten to the place of it's very helpful if you do. You don't always need one to begin with. I think we're maybe all on the same page, that it's very great to have one end book. Right. We're aiming towards that. But Emma, what does a theme do for you? What does it add to your story?
[30:12] Emma: It gives my character focus as well. And I think what it's done for me is it's taken me beyond the plotline. So if I think about those first few books that I wrote, I was very, very concerned at that time. I had to have a good plot. I had to have an exciting plot. It needed to be twisty, and there needed to be surprises, and I was very sort of concerned with that. And I'd say the character took very much a secondary sort of role in my hierarchy of what was important, and that was fine, and it served me well at that time, at that stage, I was at at my writing. But I think now what it gives me more enjoyment, I think, and it is a bigger challenge for me now to add in that theme, but also because I'm making sure that there's some kind of reference to it in every scene with that protagonist character, then it's helping giving them a drive and a momentum forward. And if they're kind of reflecting if that character is reflecting on where they were and what they're trying to fight against, it then helps them make a decision about what they're going to do next. In a weird kind of way, they are writing the next chapter in their book in some ways, because depending on what's gone before and their experiences before, what they decide to do next will be based upon that. So if we think about our Pride and Prejudice example, if Elizabeth hadn't overheard Darcy saying those mean things at the ball, then she might have been more agreeable to him. But because she's got that experience now. There's no way that she's going to have anything to do with him. It doesn't matter that he's the richest guy around and he happens to be very handsome and just ticks every box. He's been horrible about her family and her particularly, so that changes everything. But if she hadn't overheard that and didn't know he'd said that, then I'm sure she would have been much more keen to get to know him earlier on in the story and then we wouldn't have had such a fabulous story. I think that's what it's given for me. It's just helped me excavate the character a bit more and find them more interesting. It's helped me to drive their story forward. But I think also, just as a writer, for my own personal challenge, I've found that the next level of me getting better and being more nuanced with emotion, because, of course, it's all very well to think it, but then it's got to be put on the page. And I would find myself getting quite frustrated with my coach when she said, yeah, but what's she feeling here? What's really going on in our mind here?
[33:00] Emily: And it's like, I don't know.
[33:03] Rachel: Why question why is it like this? Why does she feel this way? Our clients hate that too.
[33:10] Emma: So then I'll go and a half and we'll finish the call, and then I'll go away and I'll stump about and be cross about it, but when I next come back to look at it, I'm like, oh, okay, now I know, because I've thought about it and I've gone away and I can come back. And then I'm all smiles again when we have our next call.
[33:27] Emily: I love that.
[33:29] Rachel: So we talk about the idea of plot and character being very intertwined, where your plot has to do with your character's journey, and your character's journey is what influences the plot. But I think theme is what interconnects them. The themes of the story, the story point, the thematic statement is what ties those two things together. What do you think about that?
[33:53] Emma: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Absolutely right. Because when we start a story, even as Panthers, we've usually got an idea of what's going to happen and where we want it to go, even if it's just the beginning, middle and end. But sometimes when we delve into the thematic statement, the point, the theme, and that starts to influence the direction of the story, we may find that, in fact, our original idea, there was nothing wrong with it, but it's now no longer fitting with that character and what they need and what they want in that story. And of course, we don't know what other characters might come in and sway their decision and sway their path as well. So I think they're absolutely intertwined, and I think that is one of the things that makes the whole reading experience so much more pleasurable for somebody because they see and they don't recognize it. They wouldn't articulate it, but they feel it. They feel that everything is connected and everything makes sense. Of course, the character would do that because this is what's happened to them, and that's what they're feeling when they meet so and so, or they go to this place. So I agree with you entirely that they're very intertwined. Yeah.
[35:01] Emily: We'D like to talk about it because we've got the story point, right, which is that thematic statement, which we like to describe as the thing the character needs to learn in order to succeed in their goals. And then we have the opposite of that, which we call the internal obstacle, which is a belief that contradicts it. And so before they can learn the story point, they have to believe something else, right? And that is driving their decisions. And so I like to think of plot as, like, testing that flawed belief, whatever they need, to unlearn it's. Like the plot is designed to teach them your thematic statement, your story point. And if you just have random plot events that aren't pushing towards teaching them that readers feel that. I believe that readers really feel that sort of meandering through a story.
[35:52] Emma: Yeah, I think it depends what the reader is looking for. So if I think about some books, they're very, very surface. They're short, they're sweet, and that fulfills a certain need at a particular time. Like, I can think of a friend of mine who she was a human rights lawyer. She had a very serious job dealing with not the nicest stuff in the world. So nothing was greater for her than, say, a Jackie Collins, because it was just a complete switch off. That book didn't need to have a theme. That book didn't need to have a story point. It was fulfilling something else, which was about switching off. But I think there are other stories that we go to where we do want to have that it's less about the thrill, but more about the feeling something and going on a journey with that character. So it's interesting, but certainly I've read some stories from some indie authors and it's that all. Okay. The story itself had a lot of potential, but there wasn't that depth, there wasn't that connection, and so it didn't fulfill its potential. And I think if we add the theme, the story point, all of those things into a plotline, then we just give it that 3D feel.
[37:12] Rachel: Yeah. So that makes me think, so I have a client and we're writing romance together. Just fun. Her goal is to write something fun and light hearted, and we inject a lot of humor into it because her zone of genius, so to speak, or where she finds most joy out of writing, is when she's writing things that are fun and light hearted. And we have this discussion. So we've worked together on four or five books together and we have this discussion almost every single time. Not in an argument way, but we have to work through these things together where she will have a story point and then we will develop a plot that is serious and then we have to inject the fun back into it and then bring back the Whimsy. And that has happened now like two or three times, and we've learned a lot throughout the process. But when you were saying maybe books that are just the switch off don't necessarily need maybe the themes but not necessarily a huge story point that's making me think about this client of I will probably still continue to use a story point, but it's making me think of, like, okay, how do we find the balance then, between switch off and the books that have a story point? What's the line between them? Or what does it look like to create a story that's for the switch off, for the fun? And that's not to say that books with a story point are only serious. That's not my point. But yeah, anyway, it's making me want to ask you where do you find that line? Or how do you know what it is that you want to write? Or what's the switch?
[38:57] Emma: So I think you can have that balance. I think there's a lot of funny books out there that still have a story point, that still are trying to say something, that their protagonist is still on a journey, learning something. And I have spoken to other authors about this, particularly more experienced authors who are doing very well. They've maybe got 2030 books out, and they're like, yeah, I know I should have a story point. But I don't give it much thought now. And my theory on that is it's because it's now embodied in them. Yeah, they're so practiced that they don't need to give it the same depth of thought that newer writers need to do, including myself. But I still think thrillers, romance novels, they still need to have something that's driving the story forward. But I think it also comes down to the writer. And kudos to your student who is working with you in this way, and who wants to write a good quality story, who wants to write something that's worthwhile not just to be sort of thrown away at the end. And so it depends on the writer as well. Do they want to deepen their craft? Do they want to get better at what they do? Or are they happy just to throw something out that is, on the surface, fine? Yeah, but so I think it comes down to the writer as well and what they want. But I think there is that balance to be had. And it sounds like that's a lovely way of doing it, working out that story point and getting those, as you describe it, more serious in there. But then she gets to come in and do what she does best, which is lighten up with the dialogue and the description and everything. And that works really well. Yeah. I don't know how I would find that line or I wouldn't have a definite kind of formula of finding that line. I think it would very much be a case of taking each book as it comes and seeing where the author is at at that time, what's going on in their head, what's running through their mind, and what do they want to talk about in the book. And maybe at that time, they're not wanting to go into anything more deep than you got to love yourself before you can love anyone else. And maybe it's just as simple as that.
[41:10] Emily: But that's still a thematic statement, right?
[41:13] Emma: Yeah, but it's not hugely profound. It's one that's fairly we all recognize. It's not one that perhaps needs a whole lot of thought put into, but it's still something we can all recognize and we can all understand. And it does have that universality about it.
[41:37] Emily: I was just thinking about because I want to ask you this question. I still want to pose this question to you of, like, for those books that don't where it's not necessarily that they don't necessarily have that thematic statement, kind of what makes them cohesive and drives them forward. Because I'm thinking and then my brain went to thinking about romance and how pretty much I would almost argue that inherently at the center of romance is each character has to kind of learn something or let something go before they can come together, they can love.
[42:07] Rachel: Yeah.
[42:08] Emily: And I feel like that's where the thematic statement would lie. So I'm just curious, for those turnoff books, how do you see the success of those stories in terms of what is it that's keeping them kind of cohesive and driving them forward?
[42:24] Emma: Yeah, good question. So I'm thinking of the books I've read where it didn't, for me, come together, and the plotline was fine. They had that cause and effect trajectory, that thing going on, but I just felt there wasn't anything at stake for the character and that wasn't set up at the beginning. I'm thinking of their sort of women's fiction ones and a few romance ones, and it just felt like, well, that's lovely. They're going to get together, and that's going to be really lovely. But what am I going to take away from that as the reader? What's keeping me on the edge of my seat? I don't know what's at stake for this person at the beginning of the story and why they need to keep away from that person or resist the change that they need to go through in order to accomplish something or learn something about themselves or change their life situation. And I think for me, that was the turn off. And that's why I didn't finish those books, because I kind of thought, oh, well, I know this is all going to turn out nice. And I'm not feeling for that character. I'm not rooting for her because I can kind of see where it's going and it's smooth. They've definitely done that work. Probably like me in those beginning days. I've got my plotline and it's all working smoothly and one thing leads to another to another, but I'm not really connecting it with what's driving the internal of that character and why it's so important to them. So I think for me, that is the thematic statement of the point. That's where that feeds into your character because and we understand why it's so important to them that they resist the change or that they resist Darcy or whatever it might be. Does that make sense?
[44:06] Emily: It totally makes sense. It's almost like those books are saying something just because something has to shift towards the end in order for the characters to stand up together or whatever. But it's a matter of how deep is it? How much have you thought about integrating it into the rest of the story and all of that. And so it's kind of I like this distinction of like, how deep do you go, right? Like how much do you weave it in and how much do you want to bring it to the forefront of the story? Yeah, I like that.
[44:41] Rachel: There's a new genre that's kind of emerging right now called cozy fiction. Have you heard of it before? Familiar.
[44:49] Emma: Different from cozy crime.
[44:51] Rachel: Yeah, different from cozy. It's not crime. It's just kind of like well, here's the thing. It's low stakes. That's hallmark basically of this emerging genre. And people call it different thing. I've also seen it called low stakes fiction, but that's really what it is. And one of the major books in it that I have on my Libby right now, and I have been waiting forever to get it, and I just got it is Legends and Lattes by Travis Baldry. And it's a fantasy, but the title is literally Legends and Lattes. A novel of high fantasy and low stakes. And it's supposed to be just enjoy it. You don't have to worry that your characters are going to die. You don't have to worry that they're like that they're fighting against this really big thing. It's literally just to have fun and settle into your little book nook. And enjoy it. And I've seen this come out a lot. And I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of our world right now, where people want to enjoy something that's low stakes, that doesn't feel like the world's going to fall apart if your characters don't get what this once. But it's reminded me of this that this book is hugely successful. Legends and Lattes.
[46:09] Emma: I might have to read it just I've not heard of this, of this new genre. That's really interesting. I hope people are reading those alongside, though, other stories do say something about the world and do help the reader see life from a different perspective.
[46:24] Rachel: Yeah, I agree. I personally have had so much learning, journey and personal growth from reading about the experiences of other people and shifting my own worldview because I've been enlightened and I'm able to empathize with other groups of people that don't look like me or don't believe the same thing that I do. So I agree. I think people should be well read in those books. And then this is the client that I was speaking about. This is what we were aiming for, of something that's low stakes, that's fun, that still is speaking to something, but necessarily isn't like everybody's going to die if you don't figure it out. Go ahead, Emma.
[47:03] Emma: I'm going to look out for this new genre.
[47:08] Emily: I've seen that book everywhere, but I haven't picked it up yet.
[47:10] Rachel: I finally have it. I'm probably just going to buy it on Kendall. I've been waiting on Libby, but finally have it now.
[47:17] Emily: But it's interesting, though, because I think it brings into I'm just really glad that we kind of got to this point of talking about the purpose of stories, because I think that different types of stories have different purposes, right. And so there are stories that are meant to really teach us something or really make us feel something or take us through an emotional journey. But then there are also stories that are designed to be comfort, right? And that there's nothing wrong with that. Whenever anybody says something is low stakes, I always think of Downton Abbey. I was climbing out of really deep burnout the first time I missed the boat by, like, a log shot. And so it was finished by the time I got to it. And so I just finished the whole thing. And my husband in the middle of the workday because I just was really trying to recover. And my husband, every time he came up, would just look at the TV because something would be happening. Oh, no, he dropped the dish. Oh, no, the queen is coming. Right? And it just was like, the stakes are so high. And they were not but there was something so comforting in that, right? Because you knew, I mean, for the most part, that everybody that it wouldn't.
[48:31] Rachel: Be that everyone's going to be okay.
[48:34] Emily: I was about to say that. I was like, no, lots of people die. But you know what I mean. And then later on, when I had another really low energy period of time where I just didn't have the emotional capacity to carry heavy stuff, I read every single Bridgerton novel, which I would argue each of those books each of those books have their own message, but I was not there for the message. They were cohesive. They had story points. The characters had to learn something, like very specific, but that's not why I was there. And it wasn't like those themes were very deep. They were trying to change my life, anything like that. And so I think those types of books and stories and TV shows are necessary. We those we need comfort. That's how we got through COVID. Let's be real.
[49:24] Rachel: Yeah.
[49:25] Emily: So I just want to kind of call out that theme is important, and it can make your story more cohesive to have that story point, even if it's a light Bridget novel or light fantasy romance, it's just as valid and important that you get your stories out in the world. You don't have to change everybody's lives.
[49:45] Rachel: You just said that it brought you out of Burnout, and that changed your life because you are an entirely different person than you were in that phase of your life. So it did. Even if, like, I mean, I don't know that I would ever set out to write a book, probably because I don't know that I could feel like I'm able to fully tackle that topic. But the idea of, like, I'm going to write this book to provide comfort for somebody, to provide light hearted fun that maybe is going to give them a light in what feels really dark.
[50:20] Emily: Yeah.
[50:21] Rachel: Beautiful. I'm so behind that. And it changed your life in a very positive way.
[50:27] Emily: Yeah, that's a good point.
[50:29] Emma: I wish I could do that. I would love to be able to do that. I tried to write uplift something light and frothy, and within chapter two, I've taken I've gone down a dark alley.
[50:43] Emily: So dark.
[50:44] Emma: You're not meant to write light.
[50:48] Emily: It's a skill.
[50:49] Rachel: It is a skill. Well, that's like the skill of comedy and what it takes to be an actual comedian. I'm not talking about humor. I'm talking about comedians are some of what you might call the most dark people on the planet, but they're able to make light of the nature of the world, and that's their bread and butter. But those people have to be very introspective and very thoughtful and very considerate of what they're saying and what jokes they're making and what topics they're going to tackle and make light of or help people see a different side, too. It has the same vibes for me of like, that's a skill. Some people might be naturally funny, but to be like a comedian is a skill.
[51:33] Emma: Yeah, definitely. There's definitely a deep observation and kind of understanding of human nature and being willing to go to that dark place so that the rest of us can laugh and feel better about it. Yeah, I feel that way, too. Is that okay? We're laughing. That's okay.
[51:51] Rachel: So we have a couple more questions. This is such a great call. Our interview is getting longer, which I am so here for. We could talk all day, but if we're talking about theme and thematic statement and this idea of a story point what does it look like to start to incorporate that? We know it gives your story focus and direction. We know it's going to give you cohesiveness because you have all of your dancers dancing around to the same music. But how do you incorporate the theme into each scene?
[52:21] Emma: Good question. So with my students, after they've written the first draft, we go back and then we look at the outline, and so we look at what happens, what physically happens in that chapter, so what action takes place. And then if by then we've hopefully figured out what the story point or the theme is, then we look at, okay, well, so how does that chapter relate to the theme? What's your character feeling at that point? And how does it relate to how do the two intermarriage? We talked about them in that intersection of plot and theme. So we do that in, sort of outlining it's really simple document, pretty much bullet points, trying to make that connection. And this will change over time. I think students get really nervous to write it down in case that means it's in stone. And I've got one student who she writes it in her notebook first, and then when she's ready and she's happy with that, then she'll put it on the document. But I want people to understand that it's a working document and it will change and move as you go. But then that's a great way of just getting that top line of each scene. Okay. Or each chapter. This is how it relates to the plot, to the theme. But then within the manuscript itself, those sort of big decision moments when my character is kind of having a deep thought about something, it's always in the internal dialogue that I put it into that when they're thinking about something, okay? And they're not thinking, oh, so how does this relate to I have to love myself before I can love anybody else? But it's more about, okay, what's gone before. What have they learned before, and what have they learned from their life experiences? Okay, I did that last time. I know I should do something different, but I'm too scared to, perhaps. And so they make the same mistake again before. They're kind of learning to change things. But if we see that internal dialogue on the page, then the reader can kind of go along with it and understand, okay, this is why this character is making another bad decision. But I don't agree with the decision they're making. Perhaps I can see why they would make it because they've gone through this past experience, and they're explaining to me on the page why they're making this current decision. And then little by little, they begin to like those breadcrumbs. They begin to see, okay, do you know what? I've made this decision twice in the past. It's not served me. I need to try and do something else. And then they make a different decision based on what's gone before. And again, all internal dialogue that we see on the page, it's written on the page, and then we get to see, okay, well, what's a different outcome now? Because they've made a different choice and then the character gets to reflect, ha, I made a different choice and it's worked out better. Yay, I must remember to do that again in the future. And so little by little by little, we see how that character progresses until we get to that all this lost moment where they may have taken a step back and made some of their bad decisions that they would have made in the past. Because we do that as humans, don't we? When things get tough, we fall back on what's familiar. It feels easier rather than having to be strong all the time and do something new and kind of push down our fears. Then we get to that all is lost moment and that's when my characters have to decide, okay, I either give up and just let whatever's going to happen, happen, or I realize that actually I do love myself. And now that I know I love myself, I can be more open to loving somebody else. And so they get vulnerable with themselves, which allows them to get vulnerable with the other person. And so yay, they've learned that story point by the end. But for me, it's very much about putting all of that internal dialogue on that page. And I think this is something I don't know if you've had this feedback from people saying, oh, well, if I put all of that if I write all of that down, I'm really doing a disservice to my reader, because they'll understand. They've seen it in the action and then the conversation. They'll know why my character is doing it. And I'll kind of say to people, well, particularly in early drafts, you sort of want to treat your reader yeah, like they're a bit stupid because that's what helps you get it down on the page. Yes, and we have to try and remember that our reader can't read the mind of your character. You have to tell them what your character is thinking so they understand why your character is doing what they do and saying what they're saying. But it's a tricky one and you do feel like you're dumbing down and treating them a bit silly, like they're idiots at first, but it's not, you're just giving them the information they need.
[57:15] Rachel: Yeah, we have lots of big feelings about that topic, but yes, we work through the exact same questions and kind of sticking points with both our clients and with the members of our tenacious writing community. And we consider internal processing or internal dialogue as part of the show don't tell question. So you just mentioned telling your reader what the character is thinking and we feel like so we talk about. As you're showing the reader why they're making decisions. So the only way that your reader is going to know why they're making the decisions that they're making and why they feel the way that they feel is through showing them their internal thoughts and processing of the events they're experiencing. And with every client that I work with, especially in early drafts, I encourage them to go over to overwrite it. And we always talk about it. Every single person of like, well, how do I know how much is too much? And I'm like, right now, you're not asking, how much is too much right now? You need to know. You have to get it on there. And you can always pare back in revisions once you have a very tight idea of what they think and believe, because I think that ties very strongly to our conversation earlier. You don't quite know your story point yet, so you don't quite know where the final version of that is going to end up. And so is that character's flawed beliefs? Are those characters flawed beliefs exactly what you need them to be yet? And for me, my process is exploring that through what they think and the way that my characters are going to show up on the page. Then I can narrow in what their actual flawed belief is, and then that helps me narrow in what the story point is and what those themes are. So it's so important to me to have all those thoughts there. And I do get pushback from some people of like, but you are treating your reader like they're silly or they're a little bit stupid or I want it to be open to interpretation. I want my reader to be able to interpret, like, they can think for themselves. That's a big one that I've heard before. My reader can think for themselves. I'm like, but can they, number one, and number two, are you getting the reader to feel what you want them to feel if you aren't showing them what the character is feeling? I don't think that's as effective. Yeah.
[59:49] Emily: And you're asking the reader to do.
[59:51] Rachel: Work, a lot of work.
[59:54] Emily: Yeah. They can interpret what an action like, why a character might have taken an action, but they're going to put their own spin on it, their own worldview and assumptions onto that decision. Whereas there's always so much nuance to why any person does anything because it's always built on our past experiences, our backstory, what's happened to us in the past. And so introspection, putting introspection on the page allows you to kind of draw from that and give nuance to why a person's doing what they're doing because, yeah, your reader can project, but they got to be projecting.
[01:00:34] Emma: Yeah, that's such a good point. They will. They'll be projecting from their own life point of view and then won't understand why your character then makes the decisions and then get confused and frustrated, and you risk them closing the book, then, I guess.
[01:00:46] Emily: Absolutely. Yeah.
[01:00:48] Emma: But, you know, Rachel, just as you were talking, I was thinking it's almost like we're journaling on behalf of the character, and I'm certainly one of those people. I don't know what I think until either I say it out loud or I've written it down and I kind of was thinking about that, or maybe it's like that. That's what we're doing for our characters with that internal thought. We're giving them the opportunity to journal.
[01:01:10] Rachel: Yeah, I know. Emily, you've done this more frequently than I have, but you have a whole exercise that you do with your clients to have them journal from a character's perspective.
[01:01:20] Emily: Yeah. When you're having trouble tapping into that scene, I think it can be helpful to just interview the character. Not as if you're going to put that on the page, but to just sort of sit with them and ask them, okay, what's going on? What are you thinking and feeling about what's going on in this scene? And that that can help get to that deeper level of of what's going on.
[01:01:40] Emma: That's a great idea. I think I'm going to incorporate that with someone I can think of right now.
[01:01:46] Rachel: I love it.
[01:01:48] Emily: Oh, my goodness. This has been amazing. I do not want to eat up your whole day.
[01:01:53] Rachel: I know.
[01:01:55] Emily: Can you tell us because you are just amazing, and I know folks are going to want to find more about you. So can you tell us about what you've got going on, what your general services are? Share with us how folks can find you, all of those good things.
[01:02:08] Emma: Thank you. Well, the best place to find me is my website. Emmadesi.com and I do offer one to one coaching with people on various different sort of terms. And I also offer manuscript evaluations as well, which are great fun. I really enjoy those. So if anybody has a manuscript that is, say, two or three drafts in and they need someone to look at it, I would gladly do that. But I would particularly like to give a shout out for my first foray into nonfiction.
[01:02:41] Rachel: I was so excited to hear about this book because I'm on your list and I've been eyeing it.
[01:02:45] Emma: Well. I love it. I'm really proud of it. It's an anthology. And the exciting bit about that for me was being able to reach out to people I knew who knew would just do a really good job on the different topics that I wanted to incorporate in the book. And it's myself and my friend Grace Salmon, we were kind of pulling this thing together. So if anybody is curious about book coaching and what that involves, there's a whole chapter in here about where it comes from, why it exists, and how it can help you. But we've got a really lovely mix of things, so we've got what you would expect story structure, points of view, that kind of thing. But we've got some chapters I think are really beneficial to novelists. And so we've got our research chapter, which is great. It's particularly good because it's so practical. She tells you how to search for things. So the example that she gives in the book is if you're writing a Western and it's set in Dallas and you're searching Dallas Cowboys, but you don't want the football team, she shows you exactly how you can eliminate those results from your research. We've got a chapter on grammar and punctuation, which is wonderful because we don't need a whole book on it. We just need a chapter to tell us no. And one of my favorite chapters is about show and tell.
[01:04:10] Rachel: Love it.
[01:04:12] Emma: Which just blew my mind when I talked to her about this. So that has come out. It's called launch pad. The countdown to writing your book.
[01:04:20] Emily: Love it.
[01:04:21] Emma: Series. And the second book is out as well. And it's launchpad the countdown to publishing your book. Fabulous. In exploring the different ways that you can find an agent, find a publisher, looks at self publishing, looks at traditional publishing, and looks at hybrid publishing. It's a really good chapter on just kind of clarifying what hybrid is because a lot of people think, oh, it's just vanity, or it's a scam. And that's not necessarily true. So, really useful chapter and a final great chapter also about royalties and the business side of it and just understanding how royalties are worked out when you can expect to get them and that kind of thing. So I'm thrilled to bits about it. And so I would encourage anybody to go out. Whether you're a new writer or you're just looking for a bit of mojo rejuvenation, then it will give you what you need. And the best thing about it is that at the end of each chapter, there's a top ten countdown where each contributor, these are the top ten things that they think are most important for the reader to go ahead and implement. So that you're taking what you're learning in the chapter, you're implementing it, and therefore you get to embody it. And the next time you get to your writing desk, you're already an improved writer.
[01:05:38] Rachel: Love it. We're going to put all those links amazing. Yeah, we're going to put all those links in the show notes to your website and to both Launch Pad books. So if you're interested, check them out in the show notes. Can't wait to get my hands on them, too.
[01:05:53] Emma: Thank you, ladies. It's been so lovely.
[01:05:56] Emily: This has been amazing. Really great.
[01:05:59] Rachel: Awesome. All right.
[01:06:02] Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
[01:06:09] Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
[01:06:17] Emily: Links in the show notes.
[01:06:18] Rachel: We'll see you there. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.
