[00:13] Emily: Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story magic, the podcast that will help you write a book.
[00:17] Rachel: You'Re damn proud of. I'm Rachel.
[00:19] Emily: And I'm Emily.
[00:21] Rachel: And today we are talking again with one of our favorite people bowl, Nicole Storkistad, who is our business money coach. We are talking about investing in our writing. So this is part two of this series with Nicole. If you haven't listened to part one, go ahead and listen to it would have come out last week, the episode prior to this one. And we are so excited to dive further into this topic with Nicole for everyone joining us again. Nicole, could you give us a quick little reintroduction of who you are?
[00:52] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Of course. I'm so excited to be here with you guys. So I'm Nicole store. Kested I own NSH money coaching, and I work with clients on multiple levels in their personal and professional finances to help them get over their money, trauma and drama so that they can buy a life that they actually enjoy living and are proud of.
[01:14] Rachel: Love it. I'm still obsessed with that phrase, getting over your money, trauma and drama.
[01:20] Emily: Love it.
[01:21] Nicole Stork-Hestad: It's real.
[01:22] Emily: She does that.
[01:23] Nicole Stork-Hestad: She's good at my favorite.
[01:25] Rachel: It really is awesome. So today we're talking about investing in our writing.
[01:30] Nicole Stork-Hestad: We're so excited.
[01:32] Rachel: Yes. Okay, so where should we start?
[01:34] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I love investments. Okay. So I had a question for you guys. When we talk about investments like this and investing in the craft of writing and becoming the best author, the person can see themselves being right their most elevated author selves. When we talk about investing in that, it's not the same as going to your financial planner and being like, hey, I'd like to plan for my retirement. I want to invest in an index fund. It's not the same conversation. So I was just curious about what investments means in the writing world to you guys and which ones you've made so far so that we can get our my brain and the writers brains, we can all get on board with what this topic really means with a little definition.
[02:28] Emily: Absolutely.
[02:29] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I feel like there's a couple of.
[02:30] Emily: Different ways that you can invest in your writing, and I think the number one thing that people think about is, like, craft. So, like investing in improving your skills. But I know that in my experience, I've also invested a lot in my mindset, and mindset work as well as my process, like investing in making my process easier or like opening up time, time of money. So investing in that as well. Any other buckets that you would add to that?
[03:04] Rachel: Rach well, I would just say that when I think of investments, I'm thinking of those three resources that Nicole talked about in our last episode, time, energy and money. And an investment is where you choose to put your time, energy and money in order to grow something. So in this case, what investing in your writing means to me is, where am I going to put my time, energy, and money into growing my writing life, my writing skills, achieving my writing goals? So that totally covers craft and mindset, but I think it can be like, anywhere that you're going to put your time, energy, and money into growing your skills and reaching your writing goals, that would be an investment.
[03:51] Nicole Stork-Hestad: So what is a very specific example from each of you of, like, a low stakes investment that you have taken to improve either your mindset or the skills around writing or the tools that you use for writing? What is an example?
[04:09] Rachel: So first one that comes to mind for me is, like, buying a craft book. So that would be like, money, but then you have to put your energy and time into actually reading it, which is usually where that would fall short. For me, I was a total, like, trigger finger. I'm going to buy this craft book because that's going to solve all my problems. But then you have to find the time and energy to read it, absorb it. That would be your investment into your craft. And generally those are fairly low cost.
[04:41] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Okay, yeah.
[04:43] Emily: Same with online courses and stuff, master classes, even free seminars, right? Folks host a lot of online conferences where you can learn about craft, learn about mindset, and process stuff from authors, from author mentors and book coaches and setting aside the time, because I feel like those always happen, like, over a weekend. And so setting aside that time and investing that time and energy into consuming those resources, whether they're although cost or even free, is still an investment of a kind.
[05:21] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I love it. And what is an example of a higher dollar or a higher resource investment that you guys have made in your craft?
[05:31] Rachel: Okay, so the first one that comes to mind for me, the first really big purchase I made was taking our book coaching training course. When Emily and I first decided that we wanted to start our business, we had read all the craft books. Like, we spent a whole summer reading and discussing craft books, and then we decided, let's do this. Let's actually do this. And so we found a book coaching training program, and it was one $250, and it was a really big, oh, my God, this is the first time I'm going to be I remember talking about it with Will, my husband, and we talked in the last episode about all that money, trauma, and drama. We had that. We went through that and we decided, let's do it. If we're going to do this, we're going to start this business, we should take this training. And the reason I think about it as, like, investing into my writing is because so much of that was craft related. So much of that was it wasn't just like, to run our business we have to know our craft. So that was a big investment into our craft. Yeah.
[06:34] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Awesome. Okay, so I think, Emily, what was yours? Like a higher dollar one?
[06:39] Rachel: Yeah.
[06:39] Emily: So when I first I've had a couple, I did a scene intensive with a book coach before, I think. I don't know if I had met you or not, Rachel.
[06:50] Rachel: I think it was before.
[06:51] Emily: Yeah, it was by a book coach named Leslie Watts before.
[06:55] Rachel: Yeah.
[06:56] Emily: And it was like $750, which was a lot for me, and it was just a week, and it was very intense. So I took off half of the week from my day job because I wanted to make the most out of it. And so that was like, the first time that I was like, okay, I'm.
[07:11] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Really going to do this author thing.
[07:13] Emily: I'm going to really level up and invest all of the energy and all of the resources in it. And so I've done a couple of things like that since then. I hit Burnout, creative Burnout, really heavily and Life Burnout several years ago, and I invested in Amy McNee's Inspired Collective and her journaling course, which was all about learning how to identify your inner critic and work through that mindset stuff. So that was a pretty big mindset investment. And then just last year, I took a month long course with a creative meditation writing coach to get deeper into my characters. So it's kind of like these big chunks of workshops and big skills, things that are based on whatever I'm struggling with at the time, whether it's like a specific craft skill or a mindset problem. I also feel like this maybe wasn't entirely writing focused, but it was a huge investment in my mindset, and my writing was when I got a therapist.
[08:20] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah, definitely.
[08:22] Rachel: So I just want to throw that.
[08:23] Emily: Out there that I saw that heavily influenced my writing process and my writing mindset. And so that was definitely one of.
[08:31] Nicole Stork-Hestad: The bigger ones, which is an ongoing investment, too. That's not just a one time, but what I'm hearing is that investment can also mean an ongoing or repeated process, like being in a subscription type place or being in a one on one relationship that you continually renew so that you can have increased skills. Okay, so now that we have defined investments based on the writing experts, where do you want to go from here?
[09:01] Rachel: Yeah, I want to talk about I think when people hear the word invest, they immediately go to money. And we've already touched on how it's not just money, but I want to talk about when should you invest, what is the mindset hurdles to get to that place? And then how do you not feel guilty about it? How do you not feel like, I just spent all this money, like, the second guessing the worry? How do you make that choice of confidence?
[09:33] Emily: And I have an additional kind of point to add to that, which is like when I think of the word or when I see the word invest, it feels like something that I need to be confident is going to have a return, right, return on investment. And I think for some reason there's a block there in the creative space that I definitely want to talk about in terms of that, but that's related. So I want to throw it in there.
[10:00] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I love it. So let's jump on on when when I think about the right time for somebody to invest in something, it's probably yesterday if you were sitting there thinking like, oh, I really want to improve, I really want to progress. Let me just Google one more freebie. You probably should have made in a significant resource investment with your time, energy, and probably your money yesterday, right? And so you're probably already behind on investing, especially if you're listening to this podcast on creating stories. Like if you're in it this deep, friend, you should probably be spending your money now. You're already on board with your time and energy. We just need to get some dollars in there too, so that you can get some quality, right? But the big thing on Win is really what we would love to see is somebody that is 60% sure. That's what I would love to see. Now, a lot of people's comfort level is probably not that low on a 60%, but when I start to tell my clients, I'm like, if you're like 80% sure, just do it. 80% sure, do it, do it. Just put the dollars down, put the time in, give it all your energy because really you want to. And the energy that you are spending and the time that you are spending and the money you are not making or that you're spending elsewhere because you have such yucky feelings about not doing the thing you want to do, right? Is costing you like it's costing you to not do the thing more than it would cost you to do the thing and progress. And so you guys have heard me say it before. Like if you're going to spend your money or you're going to spend your time or you're going to spend your energy anyway, which way do you want to spend it? Not doing the thing or doing the damn thing.
[11:54] Rachel: Sorry, no, you're crazy. Do the fucking thing.
[12:01] Nicole Stork-Hestad: And so if you're going to be spending, right, spending and spending anyway, then the time to invest is when you notice like, hey, actually I've been spending my time thinking about doing these things, or I've been spending my time struggling to get past this dry spell or this breakpoint or this blank page or whatever. I've been putting so much energy into resisting myself or fighting myself or justifying or researching or whatever that is. And I've been probably spending my money in lots of small ways that I think are safe, but are probably adding up to the cost of a larger investment that I know I want to make. And so, yeah, win is a matter of like when you notice that that's when you need to do the damn investment. That's when you need to click the buy button. That's when you just need to go all in on yourself and learn the lesson. You need to learn from the experience of buying with every resource that you have to get the thing that you're trying to get to get the result that you want. In my humble expert opinion.
[13:16] Rachel: That just makes so much sense because I think we see so many us writers. I will make a couple of blanket statements, so just know that this might not apply to everybody. That's okay. You're you're individual. We love you anyway. But like, a lot of us are introverts, a lot of us are overthinkers.
[13:33] Nicole Stork-Hestad: A lot of us are perfectionists.
[13:35] Rachel: And so we get caught in these traps, and I think I will start adapting for sure that 80 20 rule, because the 20% is where you talk yourself out of it. That's what we were talking about in the last episode of how much we tried to talk ourselves out of doing coaching with you, how much we just wavered on something that we really, really wanted but decided to make up. Not that they weren't. It was fear. It was all fear based. So that 20% is just the fear, like, trying to sweeze all its way in your brain.
[14:15] Nicole Stork-Hestad: It's definitely all the hurdles or barriers to you making your investment when you want to make it. Like the minute you know you want to make it, you're no longer deciding. You guys have heard me say this before, and we may have even touched on it in the last episode. The second you hear about an investment that you're like, I want that. Your brain says, I want that. Right? I need that. That is the investment for me. You're no longer in a position where you're deciding whether that investment is for you. You're now in the position of deciding whether you're going to talk yourself out of it or not because you've already decided. You make split second decisions. Every decision that you have ever encountered is a split second decision. Your brain just goes into that 20% and stays there and just goes all in on what all the what ifs are. And so when we think about barriers to creating and making investments when you want them, right, it's a matter of spending equal time on all the what ifs and the other 80%, the 80% sure. Like, what if it works? What if this is magic? What if this is the best thing that's ever happened to me? What if I get everything I ever wanted from this? What if this is my next level? What if this is the thing that's going to catapult my career and writing and I can quit my full time job. What if this is how I make a number one best selling book? What if this is how I leave my legacy on the planet, this investment here? And we never spend time thinking about those questions. And so when we think about the reasons why people stop themselves from investing in a passion and a pool that they have to being an author of their stories, that only they can write, that the world is waiting. For it's. This hurdle of I don't spend equal time thinking about balanced what ifs. Because we only stay in the what if it goes wrong. What if I waste my money? What if I waste my time? What if I don't get what I want? What if we stay over here in this 20% of yuck, right, which for strategic reasons, it's okay to walk down that path and just decide what you want to do with that information. Like, okay, well, if I don't get what I came for in this one on one coaching or this course or this program, then this is what I will do. Right, but it's balancing that with like, you are 80% in on this investment and you need to go down that what if road as well. Like, what if it all works out wonderfully? Or what if it all pushes me to the next level? What if this just is exactly what I needed and spending time in that energy and just seeing like, oh, wait a minute, there actually are more pros and cons. Actually, I am 80% sure, which means basically I'm 100% sure. So, yeah, I think all that's happening is that I'm about to do something new and that's terrifying and I'm going to have to just do that thing anyway. I'm going to get scared. Right?
[17:23] Emily: I think there's something like extra vulnerable about investing in your creations, right? Because there's something like almost I do not believe this, but I think anymore. But I do think there's a part of our brains that's like, don't be so egocentric to be like, yeah, my book is going to everyone's going to love the stuff that I make. Right? And this fear of like it's almost like you're afraid you're going to jinx it by being like, yeah, the world needs my book. Yeah. I have something to share, I have something to say, and people need to hear it.
[18:02] Rachel: Right.
[18:03] Emily: I think just getting there can be so difficult that it's like, if I can't stand in the space of yes, I believe that I can tell a story that the world wants to hear, then it's extra hard to be like, I'm going to spend money on that. And I think that's something that we work with a lot in our tenacious writing community is like, building that confidence in. Yeah, you have something that people need to read and need to hear and need to have in their lives. But I do think there's something very vulnerable about saying that out loud. And spending money is a way to say that out loud, a way to say, yeah, I'm worth my stories are worth this workshop. And I 100% believe that's true. But that is, I think, an extra hurdle.
[18:51] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah. That messaging of something needing to be worth it, to be something that we exchange our dollars for or exchange our other resources for, is the most aggravating for me because I'm like, who decides what worth it is? Is there a chart somewhere that everybody got but me? Like, is there, like, a book that everybody was handed out when they turned 13, and they were like, hey, by the way, when you start making investments with your time, energy, and dollars, here are the list of things that make it worth it, because nobody gave me that book. So if somebody has a copy and they would like to send it to me, that'd be cool. But there's an arbitrary idea of what worth it means, and it shifts based on our fear and based on what we think other people will think of what we're doing with our time, energy, or money. Oh, man. Yes. And so that worth it. Like, it's not worth it. What we're really probably saying is, I'm not worth it. And the reason why I'm not worth it is because I don't believe in me or I don't have a high opinion of myself and my abilities to evolve and my abilities to learn and my abilities to grow. And when we say that and when we think that and then we deny ourselves the opportunity to be like, actually, this is the place I go to grow. This is the place I go to develop skills, this is the place I go to step into this role of being an author in whatever capacity. We deny ourselves that. Then we just create this loop of, you want something, but you deny it for yourself. You want something, but you deny it for yourself. It's like super vasocus. Maybe it's a little bit of both. Maybe you're at that point, right? And it's all arbitrary. It's all made up in your mind. Like, a minute ago, you were like, it feels super egocentric, right, to be like, I've got a story people want to hear, and my book is going to be the best. I'm like, it's also super egocentric to be like, Nobody wants me. Yeah, that's also super egocentric. Either way, you are centered on yourself in both of those discussions in your brain. It's like, you get to choose which one you're operating in, right? Like, you get to choose on like, nobody wants this. Nobody's going to believe in me. I'm not good enough. That's a story your brain is creating. And just like any old story, you don't have to read it. You can put that book down, and the story of like, of course I've got a story in me. Of course somebody's going to want to read it. I want to read it. I want to see my story out in the world. And that is enough to decide that this investment is worth it, because what is worth it is defined by me anyway. Yeah, I think we forget that part of our power. We're like, it's not worth it. And we forget that we're the authors of what creates that checklist. Why are we purposefully being so mean to ourselves and withholding withholding? We're so withholding from ourselves and it doesn't make any sense because you go out and you work hard for your money, you go out and work hard for it and then it's like, no spending it on me. Where else are you supposed to be spending these things? Where else are we supposed to be putting these dollars? I don't understand.
[22:35] Rachel: There's so much wrapped up in that. And patriarchy is like one of them, but like, hustle culture and these beliefs that if you are spending money, you need to make more money than that. You need to have a profit. Right? It can be wrapped up in that for me. It can be wrapped in that for me. Of like, you make this money, but it's not for you to spend on yourself. It's for you to spend on others. It's for you to take care of your family. It's for you to save for some reason, and hopefully maybe you'll be happy when you retire. There's all sorts of things wrapped up in that that I just keep going back to how critical the mindset work is to get to that point where this is a choice that you're willing to make. I think you're not going to invest in yourself on an impulse. You're not making a bad choice on an impulse that you think is not going to play out. I think that's why I love so much how you're talking about you're just not spending the same amount of time on what could go right than you are on what could go wrong. It's not a bad decision to do that, and it's a good decision to believe in the future self. I keep thinking of that about me. When I would purchase these craft books and I mentioned at the top of the episode I would very rarely ever read them. And there was a part of me that kind of didn't believe I wanted this book to solve all my craft problems, which were really I was projecting my own personal problems onto that. I wanted this craft book to fix me, but then I didn't believe that if I read it, it actually would help, but that didn't stop me from buying it. And then once I started to believe in the future self that I could become, rather than let the past fears that I had about myself influence my decisions and I started to believe in the future self that I could become. I started reading the craft books. Like, it wasn't the same type of pressure. I no longer let the current or past fears of me determine the place I put my time and energy and money. Yeah, I was able to choose to do that and read the craft books and take the courses and follow through because I believe in the person that I am becoming and the person that I want to be in five to ten years. And I have a vision for who she is and I believe that I can follow through with it. That was a big hesitation for me of if I buy this thing, am I going to follow through?
[25:21] Nicole Stork-Hestad: What did it do for your vulnerability? And that a lot of people have a lot of vulnerability when they start to spend on themselves, right. Like, Emily mentioned that earlier, it feels really vulnerable, but then they also experience a lot of shame and guilt when they make purchases, especially if that purchase is associated with a larger number, which is hilarious because small purchases added up or a larger number. But anyway, it doesn't matter. When you started reading the books you had already invested in when you started basically capitalizing on your investment to actually get a return, what did that do for those feelings of growth and basically absolving any feelings of like, I bought this but I'm not using it. Or I bought this, but I'm not getting my return. When you started being like, I'm going to get my return, I'm capitalizing here. Here we go. What did that do? Did it absolve them? Did it make them weigh less? Did you replace the feelings with like, I'm doing this, look at me progressing. Go me, go, Rachel.
[26:23] Rachel: Yeah, like, all of that. I think that the way that I thought about it was like, I had a track record of like, I have a track record of buying things, these things and not doing them. And so that would prevent me from buying more things because I didn't want to fall to the same track record. And I thought I was being smart. I thought I was being good with my money. I thought I was not making bad choices. But then once I changed my mindset and I went through the work we did with you and then I worked with you personally, one on one, we did that, all that work, and built that belief in myself. And we became coaches. And all these things wrapped up in the last couple of years, I read those books and I felt like I had proved to myself that I could do it. I proved to myself that this was important to me. I proved to myself not in the way of like, I proved to myself that I had that worth and value, but that what I was saying of my past. Rachel has nothing on the person that I am now. And so why am I making money choices for the past self that I was instead of money choices for the person that I now believe I am becoming? And that healed a lot for me. I feel like that I was able to forgive myself for buying all those things and not doing them for so long. And it gave me faith in the next purchase that I'm going to make whenever that is and whenever I'm ready, like, I don't hesitate. I'm just like, oh, I want that thing. I'm going to buy it because I know that this will be really valuable for me down the road and I should have it yesterday. That kind of stuff, a belief in myself. It's just like those tiny little steps that keep adding up until you become or you are who you want to be.
[28:13] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. No. If I were going to put it in a cold paraphrase. What I heard you say was basically you stopped trying not to be the person you were and started becoming the person you wanted to be.
[28:28] Rachel: Yes, exactly. And that was like a slow, gradual thing, but it had a lot to do of letting go of the shame that I felt about money, investing, personal things, failure. I think a lot of it, too, had to do with, I'm going to buy this thing. I have full faith and I'm going to do it. But also, if I don't do it, I'm not like, a terrible person who's going to lead to the downfall and death of my family.
[29:03] Emily: To call back.
[29:04] Rachel: To call back through my previous fears. So I believe I'm going to do it, but I'm also not associating my worth and value to this thing. And that gives me more, like, takes away the pressure to actually do the thing I want to do.
[29:17] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah. I just love that so much. I just love it so much. It makes me so happy because it goes to, like, because you guys ask, when do we invest? Right? And it's like, right now you do that right now. There's probably something that each person that is listening to this episode knows they want to invest in TWS, but they're sitting on it. And the win is like, now. It's now. Go to your resources and start to move money and energy and time in the direction of the investment however you can however little you can start with doesn't matter, right. Like, just start intentionally putting the effort in to move your resources towards the investment you want to make. And do that now. Because when is now? If you're asking when, you're already a day late. Right. And so that goes to the biggest hurdle in that is just you deciding you're going to start doing it. To me, especially through Rachel's story, the biggest hurdle is like, I'm going to stop. Trying to prevent myself from doing mistakes in the past, and I'm going to start building the future I want to see, and I'm going to do that now with my resources, every resource, and I'm going to make the investments I want to make now. Rachel, you talked about guilt earlier and how just by doing that, you absolve your guilt. And then, Emily, you asked about the guarantee. And to me, that is the guarantee. You're guaranteeing it to yourself. I am getting something. I am going to get a return or multiple returns on this investment. And this is this idea of, like, I'm either winning or learning. Failure isn't a real thing. It's only the story we tell ourselves. But we have this option constantly of, like I can guarantee myself the result I am going to get and the result I am going to get from this is I am either going to win or I'm going to learn so much from putting my money, putting my time, putting my energy into this thing. And I'm going to hold myself to a higher standard of getting that result out of this investment.
[31:43] Emily: Yeah, I want to talk about results a little bit more too, because one of the narratives that I hear a lot from writers and one of the fears and one of those stories that is stopping people from doing things is built into and this is what pisses me off, the structure of publishing, right? And this idea that you're going to do all this work and you're going to put together the best book you can, and then it's up to somebody else to make a subjective decision about whether or not they choose you, right, whether or not you're good enough. And so this is built into that traditional publishing idea, right, of, like, you submit to an agent, that agent tries to sell to a publisher, and other people have to decide your story is worth hearing and worth telling. And so a lot of times I run into this narrative when folks are afraid of investing, of like, that feels so big and so far away and so impossible that it's like, is it worth it to even try?
[32:46] Rachel: Right?
[32:46] Emily: Is it worth it to even invest in trying? And I think there's two things that have to happen there. One is we have to start talking more about other publishing avenues from the get go because it's just not the only way. And you can reclaim that agency over your story and how it's going to be told and who it's going to be told to. And there was a second part. What was the second part? Oh, expanding the definition of what results are. Right? Because, yes, publishing is a result that most of us are writing because we want other people to read it. So we're investing in that. Right? But I think one of the things that I've learned so much over the last few years just by watching it happen, is that investing in building a sustainable writing life and building your mindset and finding a process that works for you and learning the craft and practicing and iterating and allowing yourself to learn, right? I was going to say fail, but learn over and over and over again. It literally makes you a better person. It literally makes you a better person. Even if no one ever reads your book, it makes you a better person to go through the process of finding out what creative life you want to live because that is related to the life you want to live. But also learning how to tell a story and put your voice into words and share a message with the world. Those things are worth it whether your book is ever read by anyone or not. And so I think when we're talking about results, writers are so pinpointed on that publishing piece of it. And that needs to be we need to have a conversation about that, but also have a conversation about what results you could get out of this that you're not even thinking about.
[34:46] Nicole Stork-Hestad: The emotional profitability of a person that knows how to communicate through word in written word is absolutely priceless.
[34:58] Rachel: Right?
[34:58] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Like if you think about the strength of how communicative people who are practiced at the skill of writing and creating story are like honest to God, they could sell anything, right? They could sell anything. Because that's all marketing is when you think about it. It's a marketing skill of creating a story that engages someone else that they buy into, right? And so even if you invest in creating your novel and getting that story out of you or your short fiction story, whatever that is, you are actually investing in soft skills that translate into a workplace profitability and a relational profitability. So you are increasing your capacity to reach human beings on all levels. And that's just like capital. It's just like social emotional capital that you're building, like putting in the bank by doing that. And I don't think people realize that. They don't realize that how they work within their authorship is transferable as a skill into where they're working in their career, into where they are relating to other people, and into how they even treat themselves in a more elevated manner. And so even just thinking about the idea of worth it or the result that you want out of the investment emily, you're so right. We have to think bigger than just like, okay, I'm going to get money back on this. Because the money comes to you. I believe money always comes to you, is always coming to you when you're putting effort in. But you get money in such indirect ways because of the way that you are relating differently to people due to a higher ability to communicate and be present for and focus on those relational aspects. And so even just increasing that awareness that you don't have to publish a best selling book that is translated into 60 different languages in order to get a result that is life altering from putting time, energy and money into your own author concept, self concept.
[37:25] Emily: I also think there's a huge danger to, like, if you are a creative person at heart and you have something that you want to make and you are not doing that, that hurts you, and it hurts your relationships with other people. It hurts your relationship, like, the way that you move through the world. And so that alone is worth it. Worth it. That alone is a result. And so, yeah, there's just so many reasons to do it. Invest in your passion.
[37:58] Rachel: Yeah.
[37:59] Nicole Stork-Hestad: The thing that you just touched on for me, too, that I work with my clients on constantly, and I think even we've worked on is like, yeah, we're considering the cost. Like, let's say somebody does want to get the Tenacious Writer Society, right? And they're like that's. $2,000. Can I do that right now? I don't know. Even with the payment plan that just got implemented, is that in my wheelhouse? Am I going to be wasting my money or whatever? And to that, I would say, yes, you have $2,000 on the line over potentially the course of six months if you take the payment plan. Right, but what is it costing you to not invest into Nature's Writer Society? Like, if that's the investment you want to make, if you're thinking about the $2,000 price tag or the investment, you're thinking about that as the cost. But again, we need to spend time on both sides of the line, right? Yes, this cost me $2,000. And then spending time with like, this is everything I'm going to get from that. Right, which isn't hard. All you got to do is go look on their website, guys, and see all the things that you will get from this. But as an example, something that we do not think about is what is it costing me to not invest in Tenacious Writer Society even though I know I want to, and going through, like, what am I losing? What is the hidden cost? Where am I spending money elsewhere on lesser investments just because they feel, how many skills books have I bought when I could have bought Ten Society? How many courses have I put dollars into that were in a safe price range? But really, when you add them up, it was probably already three months of payments for Tenacious Writing Society. And so I think that's the other piece of this is just training your brain to think on both sides of the line and looking at really where you're being drained of your resources by not doing the thing that you want to be doing, by not doing the thing that your soul says, let's do this. And that has emotional costs and relational costs as well, as Emily just mentioned, right? Like, it starts to drain. You get resentful, you get mean, you get a little grumpy because you're not doing the thing. Like, you're literally starving your soul, and for what? Something that's air quotes, right? Like, not worth it by some arbitrary standard. That's really just your fear of investing in you couched in a socially acceptable message of, like, I can't afford it, or like, I don't know about the returns or whatever, but really it's just you being afraid of you becoming you and the you that you want to be and stepping into that role because it's uncomfortable. Your unwillingness to be uncomfortable is costing you so much.
[41:01] Emily: And there's so many different types of costs too, right? Like, the cost to your story moving forward, the cost of you suffering every day that you sit down because you haven't found a process that works for you. The cost of your brain beating you up because you haven't worked through those inner critic voices. All of those things are things that are continuing to plague you. And we've talked about this before, but I used to buy into that idea of like, oh, well, if I'm suffering, then I'm working hard, right? Somehow suffering makes something better. That's not true.
[41:46] Nicole Stork-Hestad: It's not true.
[41:47] Emily: You showing up at your desk every day and not putting words down because you're paralyzed by perfectionism and you're like, beating yourself up. That does not make you more worthy.
[41:56] Rachel: Yeah.
[41:59] Emily: You don't have to have that experience with your writing life.
[42:02] Rachel: Yeah.
[42:04] Nicole Stork-Hestad: There's not a prize at the end. There's not a prize for those who struggled most. That's not a thing. You're not going to get a gold star for being the person who totally.
[42:15] Emily: Used to think there would be gold stars on the other side of that bridge.
[42:22] Rachel: Validation.
[42:23] Emily: They don't exist.
[42:24] Nicole Stork-Hestad: They really don't. Nobody cares how bad you're struggling. I don't mean this the way it sounds, but nobody cares how bad you're struggling. They care that you get the thing out.
[42:38] Emily: Right?
[42:38] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Like, they want to read a story and your struggles to get to that story, everybody jumps over that piece. That's why everybody thinks people are overnight successes. Right? Who was I listening to that somebody said I think it was Elizabeth Gilbert was like, everybody thinks I'm an overnight success that I just wrote Eat, Pray, Love, and it was just all over the place. And she's like, no. I struggled for years to get writing into the world that masses of people would write. But nobody cares that she struggles. Nobody cares. They're like, oh, cool. But yeah, you're an overnight success. Right.
[43:16] Emily: Glorification of it, too.
[43:18] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah, you need to glorify it because you keep denying yourself starving artist.
[43:24] Rachel: Yeah.
[43:25] Nicole Stork-Hestad: You need that narrative so that you can continue to deny yourself with justification, struggling. And it's better when you could really just put your money down and actually be better so I went to the.
[43:37] Rachel: Apple Store the other day to fix my AirPods, and my technician, I started to tell him what I do because they ask they're always so kind. But I was telling him what we do, and he was like, oh, my God, I'm a writer. And we got to talking, and he was telling me how he's been working on his book for probably six to eight years, maybe a little bit longer. He said he's got the whole story good. He knows it's good, but every time he goes to write, he just can't get the words down. He hates it. And so he was like, I've just never finished it because I'm not a good writer. And just like, I texted Emily afterwards, and I was like, look at me giving free coaching at the Apple Store. Because I was like, Dude, it's perfectionism.
[44:29] Emily: You meant, like, coaching him how to do his Apple job because you used to work there.
[44:34] Rachel: Yes, I did used to work at Apple. No, I was coaching him on his story because I couldn't help myself. I was like, this has nothing to do with your skills. This has to do with your perfectionism. And he was like, well, no, I just think I don't like how it sounds, so I need to make my skills better. And I was like, Dude, my brother in Christ. I love you. But no, that's not true. Talking about this, I'm like, he spent eight years hating his writing. That's his cost. When he could choose to invest in a mindset or, like, honestly, in my opinion, whatever craft skills he would then try to learn would not fix that problem. But, like, eight years? And how often do we hear that our writers that come to us have spent years struggling? And that's okay. I'm not disparaging that time period of struggle. I'm saying, like, make the decision to do something differently. Yeah.
[45:49] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I hope he's listening. If you're listening.
[45:50] Rachel: I know. I do too. I'm like bless her. I gave him our website, and I gave him all of our information. I was like, Get on my but, yeah, I mean, when we hear stories like that, it just breaks my heart because I'm like, you've spent eight years hating your writing when if you had chose, like, you could instead choose now. Right now you can't change those eight years, but right now, you could choose to invest in something that you love. Because if you didn't love this story, he would not have spent eight years working on the plot, getting it right, thinking about all it's a fantasy. So he was telling me about all the stuff that he had worked through with that. He loves it. He loves that story. And I was like, it's your perfectionism. It's not your skills. He just was, like, looking at me like a deer in the headlights. That's where I would be like, Mindset, spend your money on mindset. Spend your money on yes. And tenacious writing. Our program has that in it on purpose. That's why so many of our podcast episodes are about mindset, why these last two episodes in particular are so much about mindset, and why because it's just so critical. The skills develop when your mindset is in a healthy place. But like I was sharing earlier, when my mindset was not in a healthy place, I could not do the time and energy in the skills. I wasn't doing it. That's what I'm saying. Yes. I wouldn't. I couldn't do it. I stopped. I wouldn't do it.
[47:26] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Would not do it.
[47:27] Rachel: I would not do it. And I would make the excuse that I could not. Yes. There you go. Once you put that effort into the mindset, which is scary and takes a long time, I understand. We've been through it. The craft comes. It's easy. It's like, okay, I believe that I.
[47:50] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Can figure this out.
[47:51] Rachel: So, long story short, but don't waste eight years on something that you love doing, but you're afraid to put the investment, the time, energy and money behind.
[48:04] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Because he's putting time in anyway.
[48:06] Rachel: He's putting money he's putting the time.
[48:08] Nicole Stork-Hestad: And energy in, for sure anyway. He's just doing it with that struggle mentality, and that like, no, I can't use my money here, where, you know, he's using his money somewhere that is probably just as optional. And why not this? That's the question I really want to bring to the audience is like, why not invest in being your best author self? Why not? What is the reason that you think is a good reason to not do that? And I have to tell you, I see a lot of people, and I look at a lot of bank accounts. I look at a lot of money every day, all the time. Lots of different people from lots of different backgrounds, from lots of different cultures and continents. Even, like, lots of different monies and ways people spend their money. And let me tell you, most of the people, and by most, I mean like, all of them have optional spending. All of them have optional spending money where they are spending it, and it is not a necessity. And it's like, okay, if we all have optional dollars, and I know what you're thinking out there. Audience, I don't have optional dollars. Money is so tight right now. No, give me your bank account. I'm sure I can find it. I'm really good.
[49:36] Emily: She is very good at it.
[49:38] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I'm very good at it. You probably have optional dollars that you just think are necessities, but they're not. So, for example, Disney Plus is not a necessity.
[49:49] Rachel: I need my Disney.
[49:52] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I know that you think it is, but it's actually very optional. And there are so many other places that people just put their money mindlessly. They're like, oh, I spend too much money on whatever. And I always think to myself, if you made room for the thing you wanted, if you made room for the thing you wanted, you would, by definition, pause things that don't matter. And I'll give you an example. It's not directly related, but it kind of is because it's an investment in skill. I have a client that they've been wanting to get therapy for one of their children, a speech therapy for one of their children, and they're like, oh, we just can't afford it. We just can't afford it. We just can't afford it. And I said, what if you treated speech therapy like it was the mortgage on your house? And they were like, what? I was like, yeah. What if it was like the mortgage on the house and then speech therapy? And their brains were like, what? And I was like, yeah, you're treating speech therapy as if it's like, flippant. But if you changed it to an essential thing in your mind, if you were like, yeah, we have to pay for speech therapy. The paycheck comes in, and speech therapy is a priority. We never miss a speech therapy bill just like you don't miss your mortgage, what would happen? They were like I was like, Great. We're going to find out. So we moved speech therapy. We put it in. I was like, no, now this is a staple. What gets to go? And it was amazing at what went right. It was amazing that they found that money and paused or cut things that were less important once the priority shifted. And so if you decide to yourself, if you just make the decision, this is important. Becoming my best author, self developing my craft, getting this story out of me, doing that in a supportive environment where I get feedback that is critical and also constructive on my work on a regular basis, where I have access to constant development and brilliant brains within the industry, that's important to me. It is a priority. It goes right behind my rent or my mortgage. What would you shift? And why not be willing to shift that? What's the worst thing that's going to happen? Right? And when you take it to their logical and I think it was Rachel that was like, I'm going to end up under a bridge. I'm going to die, and I'm going to die, right? But then you wouldn't have to worry about it. It's all done. It's solved, right? And so it's one of those things. And authors are probably really bad at this fiction. Creative authors are probably really well good at this, but in a very bad way of creating a narrative, a very good story of how they will die.
[52:54] Rachel: I have a visual for me of like, I become a literal troll.
[52:59] Nicole Stork-Hestad: That's my visual.
[53:01] Rachel: Have you been to Seattle and you've seen the troll under the bridge? That's me. I'm like, I live here now. That's my story. Think of how much time you would have to write. Unlimited amount of time.
[53:16] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Limited amount of time. You just had your remarkable under a bridge, right? Like, you're just good to go. Then you're like, well, I guess I don't have to worry about anything else and writing my story, right? And when you think about that, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, my brain really is just super good at stories. But what are the facts of the situation, right? If you bring yourself back to the facts of the situation, when it comes to investments, the facts of the situation are normally I have a thing I want. I'm afraid to prioritize it because of whatever internal and external messaging I have gotten. But the fact of the matter is, I spend my money anyway. I am going to spend $2,000 anyway. Maybe not all in one day, but definitely I am going to spend $2,000 of my money on something.
[54:18] Rachel: Yeah. Can I add, too? When we created, I'm very proud, so proud of our tenacious writing program.
[54:27] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah.
[54:28] Rachel: And we talk about it a lot because it's fucking badass. Like, it's amazing. And one of the reasons why we created it as a one price product, like, you buy it once and then you're in, is so that you can make this decision once. You can make the decision to invest in yourself once and you did it. Now we get to provide you with everything you're going to need for your writing life. As long as you need it, you're in it. And you don't have, like, when you were talking about earlier of what would you shift? I'm like a purchase. Like tenacious writing. You shift once and you get back to your life and you have it. That's why we did it that way. Versus, like, a monthly subscription where every month you're trying to justify this purchase to yourself with all your money, trauma and drama. But the tenacious writing is the thing of you get in our family and you're here and you have it for forever. And I love that. For me, I love that so much and why we did it that way, because you can choose to put your time and energy in every month. You choose to put your money in once, and you're done.
[55:35] Nicole Stork-Hestad: The investment capital is different. Capital is different, which is very similar to, like, you used to do that with your craft books, right? You would buy it, and then you decided to use it and put the other resources in. And sometimes that's something to realize. Like when we think about when to invest or even how to invest in something, you have to decide which resource goes first, right? Maybe you can't extend all three resources at one time. Maybe you can't put in your time right now. But you do have $2,000, right? But the good news is, like Rachel said, that purchase, it never goes away. You're not going to lose it anywhere. It's going to be there waiting for you when you have the time, when you have the energy. Or maybe you have time and energy and you have to save $2,000 or you have to save that first month's payment for Tenacious Writer. We are using Tenacious Writer Society as an example. There are other investments, I'm sure they're good too, but whatever. The point is maybe you have timing, energy and you don't have dollars right now. You have to work on the dollars piece. But it's all about that mindset of like, I am working towards this investment. So if I don't have everything I need to make the investment right now, I am going to take steps, however small, towards being able to make the investment that I want to make. And I think that that's something that I think it was Emily that used the word agency earlier. Maybe it was Rachel or maybe it was both of you. But I love that word agency. It's one of my favorite things. And it's the exercise of agency over the decision you're making. You're taking agency, having agency, whatever that phrasing is, you're using your agency over your life to put your resources where you want them to go with an intentionality and if I teach my clients anything, it's that it's like you direct every dollar. Yeah, you are always directing every dollar and you are either doing it intentionally or you are doing it unintentionally. And let me tell you, that ends up with two very different results. When you intentionally direct your resources versus when you are unintentionally or impulsively or avoidantly directing your resources, you get two different outcomes and one of those you at least appreciate, the other one you don't really love so much it causes a lot of trouble in your life. I'll leave the audience to guess which option does which. But when we think about taking agency over these choices, what we mean by that or what I mean by that is there's a belief, a belief in your choice and then there is a secondary belief that you can handle whatever the consequences of that choice is, are whatever consequence comes as a result of that choice. Whether it's a good consequence and you're really excited that you got it, or whether it's something that's a little more yucky, you can handle it because you're walking down the road and I like to use the visual of you're driving. Like maybe you're on a road trip and you decided to go from Lexington, Kentucky to Denver, Colorado.
[59:00] Rachel: Sounds like a good trip.
[59:01] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I don't know why anybody would want to do that trip. Me, I want to do that trip. Anyway, you're going from Lexington, Kentucky to Denver, Colorado and you're driving it and it's like you match out your route, right? Like I know my end result that I really want as an investment of getting in the car filling up my gas and driving. Taking the time to drive to Denver is to get there to see some really cool people, right? But along the way, I may have to adapt my route. I may have to be able to handle whatever detours come as a result of the choice to drive to Denver. And I may have to go around, or it may take me a little extra time, or I may have to backtrack a little, or I may have to stop overnight or whatever. There may be unexpected experiences or unexpected cost to the trip that I wasn't able to fully plan for because I don't have prophetic abilities. But in the end, as long as I don't stop driving and I keep adapting to whatever is thrown at me, I'm going to get to Denver. Yeah, I'm going to get to Denver. And I think that that's the same. When you think about investing and you're growing, you're becoming your best author, self this author that you want to become, so you can get your stories out of you. If that's the goal, that's the result, get my story out of me. I have this story that I love that I need to get out of me. If that's the result, every decision you make between here and there, it's going to have some detour, some setbacks, some times where you have to pull over, some times where you have unexpected costs or you have to whatever, you're going to have that. But as long as that is the thing you want to do, every investment you make is only going to get you closer to that spot. And that's the thing I think we forget too, is like investments are called investments for a reason. You are going to get something out of them and it is going to progress you forward towards that goal of getting your story out of you, of becoming an author. And so when we deny that or when we sit here and we're like, oh, it's not worth it, that's like me sitting here and being like, oh, the drive to Denver is not worth it. The drive to Denver is not worth it because I might have to take a detour or I might have to fill up more than once or I may have to stop a night in a hotel room, it's not worth it. And so then I just never go to Denver, right? And that doesn't make sense. It just doesn't make sense when I really want to. And so I think hopefully that's a good visual for people to hang on to. I'm like, it's always worth it if you want to do it. The only way an investment is not worth it is if you just don't want to do it. Doesn't matter to you, right? That is a not worth it investment. But if you want to do it and you repeatedly come back to it, just sink your. Money in, you're already in it. You're already invested in some ways. You might as well just full on commit.
[01:01:51] Rachel: Yeah.
[01:01:52] Emily: That's a really good message to leave people with. Yeah. If you want it, it's worth it.
[01:02:02] Nicole Stork-Hestad: I love that it's like a checkbox. It's like the only narrative you need.
[01:02:05] Emily: Yeah. Oh, this is so good. What a good episode. What a good conversation. I'm curious because we've talked about a lot of things and we've given homework kind of throughout things to think about and things like that. But do you have the top three things people should think about as they're sort of processing this episode and walking away from this before they get the next one doing a part?
[01:02:31] Rachel: Three?
[01:02:31] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Yeah. Okay, so homework assignment number one is spend time on what Ifing on both sides of the line. So if you are what Ifing on all the things that could go wrong or all the ways it could be a waste or all the ways it's not worth it, that's totally fine. You are allowed that. But you have to spend equal amount of time on the other side of the line wondering the what ifs of what would go right. What if it went right? What if this works? What if this is the ultimate investment and I get the most massive return? You have to spend time there. So that is homework assignment number one. Whatever you're sitting on, whatever you've decided to walk back on yourself decision wise, you have to spend equal amounts of time on both sides of the line. Number two, there is a lot of research around agency and not feeling supported in your choice is one of the number one reasons why people don't exercise their agency over a choice they really want to take. They are really worried about taking on the responsibility of a choice all by themselves. Right? And that makes a lot of sense because we are social human beings and we want to feel supported in our choices. Here is what I would like to offer you. One, you have to tell someone that you're going to be making this investment that you know is supportive. Don't tell unsupportive people. Right? Again, it's that message of like spend time on both sides of the line. So find people, find a community of people that are doing the thing that you want to do and spend time with them, right? Put yourself in the company of people that are writing. Put yourself in the company of people that are becoming better authors. Put yourself in the company of people who want to progress their story and their craft, right? And so that you can start to feel that sense of support and validation. And then along with that, stop denying yourself your own support and validation, right? Like get on your own team with your decision and your passion. If you are against yourself and resist the passion you feel called for literally, your soul is dying right now, and it's optional. And I think that's point number three. Realize where everything is optional. Whatever you're thinking is a truth or a fact or like a must or you're stuck. You are not. You are not. Unless you are literally chained to a radiator somewhere while listening to this podcast episode, you are not stuck. You have options. And even if you which I hope you're not, but even if you are, you should still be trying to get out of that situation. Bro. Why would you continually stay in a situation that makes you feel stuck? You should be constantly asking your brain to innovate for a solution to move you forward, because if not, honestly, that's the lack of return on investment for me is just allowing yourself to be stuck. No human being is stuck. Are there plenty of human beings in the world that have barriers and really high barriers? Absolutely do not deny that fact. However, the same applies. Like, if I want to go from Lexington to Denver, as long as I keep driving to Denver, I'm going to get there. And do you really care how long it takes if you get that story out of you?
[01:05:53] Rachel: Yeah.
[01:05:54] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Do you really care how much it was worth? Like, how much it costs you if you get to reap the benefit of that story being out in the world and enjoyed by you and whoever else you decide to distribute it to and whatever method is possible, like, you are not going to care. You're going to be so proud of that accomplishment. And so just realizing that it's really just up to you to express agency over your choice and really express control over your own mind to give yourself rather than deny yourself.
[01:06:34] Rachel: Yeah.
[01:06:35] Emily: Love it. So good.
[01:06:39] Rachel: Wonderful. That's it. Yeah. That was a wonderful episode. We have Nicole for one more, so join us next week as we talk about kind of the business of book writing.
[01:06:53] Emily: Yeah, it's going to be a different one.
[01:06:57] Nicole Stork-Hestad: You don't have to make money to write. Exactly, but you could if you want to.
[01:07:02] Rachel: If you want to.
[01:07:04] Emily: If you want to. We've got lots of tips and tricks in the next one if you want.
[01:07:07] Rachel: To listen in next week. So thank you so much, Nicole. We'll go ahead and wrap up here.
[01:07:13] Emily: Thank you so much. We'll see you on the next one.
[01:07:15] Nicole Stork-Hestad: Bye.
[01:07:17] Rachel: All right.
[01:07:18] Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
[01:07:24] Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the magic of character arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
[01:07:34] Emily: Link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye.
