[00:13] Rachel: Hey writers, welcome back to Story Magic podcast that will help you write a.
[00:17] Emily: Book you're damn proud of.
[00:18] Rachel: I'm Rachel.
[00:19] Emily: And I'm Emily.
[00:20] Rachel: And today we want to talk about the pros and cons of external motivation. So this is a very important topic to me, actually, because I find previous Rachel was very motivated by external motivations, external circumstances, but I think for the wrong reasons, and I always would get a lot of things done but not feel good about them. Current Rachel has found a lot of value in external motivation and it's very much helped me stay on track, make progress as fast as I want to, et cetera, et cetera. So I want to talk about kind of the mindset difference between the two and what might work for some people and what might work for other people.
[01:15] Emily: It's so funny that you talk about the change because I feel like mine was opposite. I used to be extremely driven by external motivation, but for all the wrong reasons, and I really burnt myself out because of it. And since I started to work on that mindset stuff, now I really don't like it and it doesn't work for me. And so I'm really excited to dig into the difference between because we all have different reasons why or why not external motivation is going to work for us. And it's really important that mindset piece of digging into how does it affect your mindset specifically? Because only you can answer that question. And so I love that we have very different standpoints on this so we can experience this, so we can look at it differently. Let's talk about it more. Talk about mindset.
[02:10] Rachel: Yeah. So when I say external motivation, what I mean by that is doing something like writing because of external reasons. So what that is for me right now is that I have a daily word count goal because I'm trying to finish my draft by the end of this month, and that is today is May. So I'm trying to finish my draft by the end of May. And so I have a writing goal every day to hit those words, to reach the word count that I'm aiming for, that I'm targeting. Sometimes this can be kind of any external motivator, any reason that you're doing writing, whether that's to meet a deadline, to complete so many words in a period of time, to do three drafts in a year. Like any type of milestone, I would say, or any type of you're not just kind of doing it when you want to. You're like doing it because you have a reason that you have either put on yourself or you have a circumstance that has given you this reason to do something externally. So I want to start by telling kind of like a difference in experience here in a story. So we do live coaching calls in our tenacious writing program where once a month sometimes more. You and I will show up to a zoom call, and any of our TW members can come and ask questions to us, and we provide them with coaching and advice and love and encouragement, guidance, et cetera, to kind of get them back to the page. So on the last coaching call that I hosted, one of our members came with kind of this problem of she was feeling very unmotivated, very demotivated. She was like, I don't feel a pressure to produce anything. And that was like, a problem. Which is funny because what I'm laughing about is like, don't feel the pressure to produce.
[04:10] Emily: That's the goal.
[04:11] Rachel: But she was feeling like she wasn't doing enough. She wasn't getting enough done. All of this is wrapped up into hustle culture. So we talked about that for a minute, but I asked her. I was like, what do you think about external motivation? If you are trying to complete something in a certain amount of time and you're feeling really unmotivated to do that, have you thought about a daily workout goal or a daily time, like a timer goal or some sort of you want to do this much in this period of time? And she was like, yes, but it makes my heart start beating crazy, and it makes me want to hyperventilate, and it makes me freak out and worry that I'm not going to do it. What happens if I don't complete it? And I was like, Then, girl, don't. Do not set an external motivation for yourself if that's how it makes you feel. If it instantly makes you worry, what if I can't meet it? That was a problem. So we started talking about this of the when does it work and when does it not work? And I shared the story with me where it's really working for me. That is really motivating for me to have a big goal and be able to break it down into manageable pieces per day. But that used to burn me out, and it doesn't anymore. And the more I thought about it, the more that I was thinking, okay, what about my mindset is different. That's what I'm aiming for in this conversation, is like, how can we mold our mindsets to create the motivation for ourselves that is the most impactful, whether it's external or whether it's internal or whether it's or something else where you're just like, you know what? I don't want to have the pressure, so I'm just going to write whenever I feel like it. And if I don't write for three weeks, fine. That's perfectly okay too. So for this author who was really worried about this deadline, we talked a lot about taking the pressure off and just not get rid of the deadline. In so many cases, it's arbitrary. In so many cases, writers create deadlines for themselves for no other reason than trying to produce a certain amount of things in a certain amount of time because they feel like they have to in order to get validated or to prove themselves or to feel like they're a writer. That is all the wrong reasons to set an external motivation. Like a daily work count goal.
[06:40] Emily: Yeah, self worth is a really big piece of this. And that was when I was talking earlier about how I used to use external motivations a lot. I had crazy spreadsheets of word counts and all the things. And this was with my first novel and that for me was coming. And I think that's the question we want to ask is where is it coming from? Where is the desire to do that coming from? And for me, at that point in time, it was coming from a space of if I don't finish this draft by X Date, then there is a part of me that deeply, truly believes that I am like a lazy failure. And I will never get a book in the world, and I will never amount to anything as a writer. That is where it was coming from. And it was coming from this tangentially to that. It was coming from a place of I don't trust myself to complete this project that I love without control, without controlling myself, by forcing myself to show up in a certain way every single day to prove something to myself. And so for me, that's where it was coming from. And that was a very unhealthy place to be setting external motivation goals.
[07:56] Rachel: Oh yeah. I really love that you brought up the idea of control. I have some questions that I want listeners to ask themselves, so we'll get to that. But I mean with this idea of control, you have to control yourself or you won't get it done. Basically hustle culture galore. But I have had multiple clients who create these in depth detailed timelines of like down to the day when they are going to accomplish what thing and if you miss one day, the entire timeline is like thrown off. That is what used to get me where I would do the same. And I used to set external motivations for very similar reasons. But what I didn't realize was that my ADHD brain really enjoys seeing myself hit those goals, being able to get. So I use Scriveners and they have that word count like bar and once you hit it turns green.
[09:11] Emily: I have never figured out how to use that ever.
[09:13] Rachel: Oh my God, it's shift command t and it brings it up.
[09:18] Emily: My brain is like no Emily, stop right there.
[09:23] Rachel: It's called the project tracker. So if you go to project and then you can go like project targets. Anyway, Scrivener is the best. I love scrivener. That's so helpful for me. And I get a little dopamine hit whenever my bar goes green, whenever I reach my goal and that makes me feel really good. But previously I didn't realize that's what my brain was trying to do. I was setting the goals to feel valuable, to get that self worth. They also worked. So I had to tease apart, why is this working for me? But why do I feel so bad about it? Then I worked on my mindset, and that's why it still works for me, is because my brain wants that dopamine hit. I want the stimulation that I get when I see those numbers go up. I like seeing the physical progress or like the numbers tick up the more that I write. That's really motivating to me. But I no longer attach that to what if I skip a day? Well, my whole project tracker is off. No, it's not, because now I am very protective of my rest, and if I want to skip a day, okay, so what if I finish my book on May 31 or June 1, so what? So I'll skip a day. And that's where I have really dove into why does this work so well for my brain and my body? But how can I think about it in a way that's impactful and valuable and healthy for my writing practice? And I found a balance of like, okay, I'm going to set word count goals that feel reasonable. So here's another example. I had originally set my goal for like, May 15, and I skipped a couple of days to take some rest. And there were a couple of days where I was like in a hyper focused reading zone. So I read like four books in a weekend. Then I didn't write that's. Another part of ADHD is that I get very hyper focused on a specific thing and when I'm hyper focused in a book, I cannot write. So I missed a couple of days and it ticked up my word count target to like 3000 words a day. And I was like, there's no way.
[11:31] Emily: Just move it back.
[11:32] Rachel: Who cares? And move my date back may 31. That's my goal. And it brought my words down. I was like, that's doable. That feels really good. I'm going to try that. And a couple of days ago, I just decided, you know what, I don't want to write today. So I'm going to take this day off knowing that the next day I'd have a little bit more words on my tracker. And if I hit them, great. If I didn't, great. It doesn't matter to me whether or not I hit this.
[11:59] Emily: Yeah, it's about like your self worth is no longer tied to did I produce my factory output or not? Yeah, and there's also a trust level, too. I think trust is really big here and it's tied to self worth. Right. And this is in both of our stories or pops up in both of our stories. For me, it was I don't trust. I feel like I have to control myself because I don't trust that I'm going to show up. I don't trust that I can finish this on time unless I control myself. And that's what's shifted for me, is that I have learned that I don't show up. My consistency doesn't look like that. My consistency doesn't look like every day. It doesn't look like the same time every day. It doesn't look like I've leaned into this process of I do a lot of thinking and subconscious work and journaling and a lot of this deep stuff, and then I create inverse. So right now I'm gearing up to start a revision. And I haven't started my read through yet for various reasons, but I really think that what's going on deep inside is I'm subconsciously thinking about the bigger revisions that I want to make. And I'm not ready to start reading and going into the detail stuff. And once I am, I'll be able to pump that out fast. But if I was to be like, dude, this many chapters this day and this many chapters tomorrow and this many chapters, my brain would break because it needs the time to go through those motions. But that is something I had to learn about myself. I used to try to force myself into this 1200 words a day box, and it really burnt me out because that's just not how I'm meant to produce.
[13:38] Rachel: Yeah, to create. To create. And I think that you just touched on my point of this episode, which is that you had to figure it out through trial and error without judgment. If you're listening to this and you're like, that's me. I put so much pressure on these external motivations, on these deadlines, on these timelines, on these goals, on these trackers, but I don't know how to do it any differently. The first place you start is by letting go of the pressure and the judgment and the shame. Here's an example. In January, this is not a full example, but okay, hear me out. This is a story. So in January, when we were doing our build a Sustainable Writing routine workshop for tenacious writing, which by the way, everybody, you can still go take that workshop if you are a TW member. So become a TW member and learn how to build a sustainable writing routine. When we were doing that, I was only at a place where I wanted to write two or three times a week, and that was fine. Then I was like, you know what, I feel really good about finishing this draft. I'm so close. What if I did like a word count goal and then I pivoted and I changed? And then I've been writing every day for a month, taking like one or two days off here or there when I've needed it. But before I took that break, I was mentioning I had written for 14 days straight. And I was like, okay, I'm going to take a little break today. I don't want to do it. You've got to be aware. You've got to build that awareness, and you've got to let go of the shame and the judgment, because some days, some weeks, sustainability, it might be writing one day a week. Sometimes you might be like, right now I'm feeling so good about trying this new thing I'm going to try out. Can I reach this goal in 30 days? But you've got to let go of what happens if you don't hit it? That's the question I had to ask myself multiple times. What happens if I don't hit my deadline? What will I think about myself? Not like there are other things wrapped up. And what will the people around me think if I don't hit this goal that I want to talk about in a second, but what happens to me if I don't hit that goal by May 31? Nothing.
[16:04] Emily: Yeah. And that comes down to this idea of feeling safe, which I think is really important to touch on, because for me, when I didn't trust myself and my internal narratives were being driven by this deep lack of self worth and fear that I wouldn't be worthy unless I did X, Y and Z. It felt like what you just said about let go of these things would have been really triggering for my fear.
[16:34] Rachel: Right.
[16:34] Emily: Of like, oh, I can't let go of my daily word count goals. They are literally my safe space.
[16:42] Rachel: They're a very toxic safe space.
[16:44] Emily: But that's what my brain felt like. It felt like, no, those are what's keeping me safe. And I had to learn how to find safety elsewhere, in trust, in myself, in understanding that nothing bad would happen if I didn't meet my goals and learning that I had worth outside of my word count goals. And I just want to emphasize that a, that takes time, and B, it's okay to slowly work through that fear stuff and letting go of those tools that feel like safety, that aren't safety, but feel like safety. So for me, for instance, one of the first things that I did was I stopped doing word count goals, and instead I did hourly goals. And you touched on that a little bit earlier. But for me, because I was using because of my process, because my process is so much like this, like, it looks like this deep pause, and then it's this big burst of creation and then this big pause, right? I'm creating the whole time. But word count wise, it doesn't come out that way. So for me, I set time goals instead, and I said, okay, we're going to show up for at least an hour every day, let's say for a month. And I did that, and I tracked what I did. And at the time, I think that was coming partially from a place of control, like, do I really trust myself? But ultimately, it showed me that. It showed me that I produced in these big bursts and that by the end of the month, I had created close to what I had wanted to word count wise. But by not having daily word count goals, I freed myself up to explore different ways to create. And so I don't even set those anymore time day time things anymore. Because some days I'll produce for eight straight hours and then other days I won't do anything or I'll walk and think for 3 hours. But that came with trust. I couldn't have done that back when I was doing word count goals. I couldn't have shifted to, okay, now I'm just going to trust that I'll show up when I feel like it and everything will work out. That was too far of a jump for me. So think of ways that you can open up flexibility in your routine to explore what might work better for you.
[19:08] Rachel: Yeah, that's what I was getting at was that this takes an exploration. This takes getting know. You have to get to know yourself, but you can't get to know yourself if you are judging yourself from the moment that you stop the word count goal. That's what I was meaning of. Like you can't keep if you're still maintaining that word count goal from a place of shame. You're not exploring, you're not trying new things, you're not experimenting. I think this takes experimentation and it takes figuring things out and listening to yourself and asking yourself questions. Our bodies feel the pressure of everything, of writing, of having really big dreams. Most of the time we're setting deadlines because we want to achieve something. We want to get our books out into the world. Like, how beautiful. But you still feel a pressure about that. Why? Where is that pressure coming from? Where are you creating it in this process? Where are you even holding it in your body? My body tends to curl up into defense mode and then I can tell I'm feeling really defensive right now because my shoulders are hunched over and I need to stretch out my neck. My body's own reaction to my subconscious feelings clues me in on what's going through my head right now. Do I feel unsafe? Why? And experimenting to test out what causes those feelings is like the first step to getting to that place where you can let go to getting to that place where you can do what feels right to you. Like in that moment where you do feel unsafe, the only thing that feels right is when you put up those walls to create that false feeling of safety. So you can't find like my ultimate leave off point was going to be like, do what works for you. But if you don't give yourself the opportunity to find that out and build a safe space around yourself while you do that, you're not going to be able to find what works for you. You're just going to go back to what feels like it's safety, even though it's a fear response.
[21:22] Emily: Yeah. Brilliant. And yeah, I'm just going to reiterate the Build a Writing Routine workshop will walk you through how to do this because I feel like we're like, go experiment and they're big and they're important things, but if you're like, this sounds amazing, I want this. How do I do it? We have some questions that we'll leave you with today that you can start to explore, but if you really want that guided walkthrough exploration of finding what works for you. The workshop that Rachel led on Building a Writing Routine is incredible and it's available to tenacious writing members, so tenaciouswriting.com.
[22:05] Rachel: Come the to tie the workshop into just this greater process for you. The workshop was four weeks long and we met every week and we did homework and exercises every week because this takes time. So I don't say that to be like, this is a big workshop. I'm saying it to be like, it takes time. Even if you're in a guided led session by us who have been through this process, or if you're learning this on your own, you still have to give yourself grace to allow the time for you to unlearn old. Habits, feel out new things and then establish what you want to try or experiment with what a new external motivation might look for you. Or maybe just getting rid of external motivations in general, and just feeling like showing up whenever you feel like it. It's a process, so you're allowed to give yourself some grace to do.
[23:04] Emily: Yeah.
[23:06] Rachel: And I'll say, too, this is a frequent check in that we have in TW, where we didn't just have our four weeks and that was over. We do still check in about it and we care very much about our members writing processes and we're always thinking about that and adjusting because what your life looks like in one point is probably going to look different six months, a year, two years down the road. And adaptability is a big piece of sustainability and consistency. Yeah.
[23:39] Emily: So before we dive into things to take away, I kind of want to draw, just re highlight that external motivation works really well for Rachel right now. It's not working well for me right now. And I think that both of us are in a really great place. And so we're not trying to say that external motivation is good or bad.
[24:06] Rachel: Yes.
[24:06] Emily: What we're saying is it's got to be coming from a good place, it's got to be coming from a healthy place for you. So something that I would ask, and this is what I think we both ask people all the time when they come to us with questions about this is like, where is it coming from? What's driving you to want this? Because I've heard before on coaching calls that some folks find external motivators to be really helpful because it helps them prioritize something that they otherwise wouldn't. And that is a really healthy way to have word count goals if you're really excited to write that many words. And it could be something like, I have a client who's working on she wants to write at least a paragraph three times a week, but she really wants to do it. She wants to show up. And that external motivator makes her prioritize, making sure she has time to sit down and write three times a week. And so that is coming from a really good place versus some of the other things that we've talked about, of it coming from a really bad place.
[25:21] Rachel: We've talked a lot about deadlines and goals and things like that. But there's also accountability, which is a really cool external motivation that works really well for me, where I love having someone beside me who knows what I'm doing and who can help me stay accountable to myself. I said this word before on the podcast where I do well with obligation because I'm feeling like I've said to somebody, I have this goal and that has spoken it into an existence. But I didn't mean obligation at that time. I meant accountability because obligation is the mindset of I've said it to Emily, so I have to do it. And if I don't do it, I'm letting myself and Emily down. Bad accountability is Emily's on this journey right beside me. She knows I have these goals and she's going to encourage me when things go awry or celebrate with me when I hit the goal or she just was kind of right here next to me knowing that I'm working on something that's different, that's accountability. But obligation is when you feel like if you don't do it, you're going to let somebody down. Yeah, it's where I would get tripped up because I would not share my goals in case I didn't live up to them. And that was a question of self worth validation. So there's lots of ways that you can find external motivation, but you got to go back to ask yourself, where is this coming from? And why do I want this? Why would this help me? And you'll know, does it feel right or does it not feel right?
[26:57] Emily: Your body will know. Is this exciting or is this like, your body will know. And that is your if it's if it's scary, if it's like the tenacious writing member was saying to you at the beginning of the call in your story, that it made them want to sweat and hyperventilate and their heartbeat. Those are signs that that is not for you.
[27:21] Rachel: Yeah, there's like the scary kind of thing where you're nervous about putting yourself out there and then there's the gut feeling that this is not right for you. There's like nervousness and anxiousness and then there's like that gives me actual heart palpitations. And I cannot do that again. You're like, don't do it. Don't do that.
[27:46] Emily: Yeah, and I just want to differentiate.
[27:49] Rachel: Right?
[27:49] Emily: It takes time to get to learn those signals in your body. And the fear of something new is also the fear of shame, the fear of judgment. The fear of your own inner voices is not something that you should let guide you. If back in the day when I was tracking word counts, you were like, well, what if you just wrote when you felt like it and trusted yourself? I would have had a fear response because I didn't believe that to be possible. And so we're not telling you to jump from one to 100 here, one little step at a time. I was like, okay, well, at that point, doing a time limit thing each day felt exciting and safe at the same time. And so that was the next step that I went to. So just don't try to go too far too fast and go with what feels good.
[28:42] Rachel: Yeah. Okay. So here are some questions, and these are the questions we've touched on. But to reiterate, as you are thinking about, do I want external motivation or do I not? Or what is the thing that excites me? You can ask yourself, when you think of an external motivator, do you have pressure associated with that? Are you feeling pressure or a sense of foreboding or obligation? Does anything feel off in your body? Like, if you sit and you listen to the way your heart's beating or the way your cheeks get red or the way that you start to sweat, when we say, what does it do to your body? We're thinking, like, how is your body physically reacting to this thing? Where are you creating that pressure? And why? What is it that you're feeling? Can you think of why you're feeling that way? And here's another really big thing which we brushed over, but if you have an external motivator, or actually this goes for anybody, how are you building rest into your process? Where are you giving yourself the space to rest? Because people get lost in the daily goals where it's like, every single day I have to do this thing, but then they forget that you are allowed to take a rest day. But I can't because I have this daily goal, and you're like, no, stop it. You need to rest. Otherwise, this is where it gets you to the burnout part. This is where it gets to the point where it feels so exhausting to tell yourself you're going to do something. You have to build rest into your.
[30:16] Emily: Process, and you have to build it in just saying, oh, I skipped a day on accident, and I felt like crap about it, and that was my rest day. That does not count. That's not rest.
[30:26] Rachel: Yes, you need to build in rest without guilt. Rest with guilt is not rest. So you. Need to build rest without guilt into your process. I work with my clients to select one day a week, sometimes more. That's a good way to do it. We also work on just giving yourself permission to take a day and not feel guilty about that. It can look in a lot of different ways, but hold that in your head of, I'm not setting this goal, depriving myself of the time to rest, or I'm not using this external motivator to deprive myself of rest because somehow rest would make me lazy or out of control.
[31:11] Emily: Yeah, less than.
[31:13] Rachel: Less than. And then another guiding question to decide if external motivators, external motivation is right for you is by asking yourself, what will you feel? What will you think? What happens if you don't hit that deadline, if you don't hit that goal, if you don't do this motivator on one day, what will you think about yourself? And if it's any type of negative, shameful, harmful thought, you've got to explore that. You got to think about where's this coming from? Do I really want this then? Or is there a way for me to pivot my mindset to think differently about this situation? Because for me, like we've said, I have the same goals, but I think about them way differently because I think about myself a lot differently. But for Emily, doesn't have the same goals but still thinks about herself a lot differently.
[32:05] Emily: Yeah, that's like the Gold question right there. And I think a lot of people don't ask that. They just say, well, I have to write 50,000 words in this month because I have to. And you're like, why? What happens if you don't? And that can open up a lot of options and a lot of awareness about what's going on. I love that one.
[32:25] Rachel: And what this does for me is that instant fear of failure and rejection, which is a fear that you will be rejected and cast out of society and that somehow you're no longer valuable, et cetera, et cetera. That, for me, was the mindset that I needed to shift to refined my self worth.
[32:47] Emily: For me, it was that if I don't hit the deadline, I'm a piece of shit person and I will never amount to anything. That was my internal narrative. Had to work through that and then got doors opened.
[32:59] Rachel: Yeah. And then our final question, which we have definitely talked about, is what works for you? That's the part that you have to experiment with is what works for you. What motivates you, and why is that motivating to you? Do the daily yeah. What excites you can be a good what excites you, what feels good. Like, we talked about those negative feelings of what feels bad, but what gives you those good little flutters, those good heartbeats, those butterflies in your tummy that's like, OOH, that's cool. What if I try that out? What gives you those feelings that's just as important as what kind of driving you away from those other feelings. Yeah.
[33:43] Emily: Without the shame. When I was working with that client who write her goal, her minimum goal is three paragraphs a week.
[33:51] Rachel: She has to sit down and write.
[33:52] Emily: At least a paragraph three times a week. She always writes more than that, but that's her goal. And when I was like, how does that feel? She was like, when we set that.
[34:00] Rachel: For her, it was two parter, right?
[34:03] Emily: She was like, oh, my gosh, I feel like this huge weight off my shoulders. I just feel so light and free. And I was like, that's the feeling that you want. And then there was also the part, right, the external part that was like, well, externally, if somebody from the outside looks in, that will look like nothing. That looks shameful.
[34:22] Rachel: Right.
[34:22] Emily: From a hustle culture perspective, and we had to draw the line between your body says yes to this, who gives a shit the hustle culture is going.
[34:30] Rachel: To say about it.
[34:32] Emily: So pay attention. Those voices might try to come in and judge what feels good for you. They don't have a say. Your body has the only say.
[34:42] Rachel: Yeah. So last thing is say no to the things that don't feel good, to the things that don't motivate you or have the potential to completely derail you as you go through your air experimental process. We've talked about finding the things that feels good, but that also means you're going to find things that don't feel good and say no to those things. Like on this coaching call with that writer, when I offered the suggestion of, what about a goal? She was like, no. And I was like, hell yeah. Hold that boundary for yourself. You don't have to do that. You can say no. You can say no. I know myself at this point, to be like, that won't be helpful for me. That actually would send me into a spiral. So hold your boundaries, trust yourself, love yourself, and only say yes to those good things.
[35:37] Emily: Yeah. Life's too short, man.
[35:40] Rachel: Yeah.
[35:44] Emily: Okie dokie. If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
[35:53] Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of character Arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night. Links in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye.
