[00:14] Rachel: Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
[00:18] Lewis: I'm Louis.
[00:19] Rachel: And I'm Rachel.
[00:20] Lewis: And today we are going to be talking about creating consistency in our writing routine.
[00:26] Rachel: Yay. So if you didn't notice, we have a little bit of a different co host with us today. We are joined by Lewis, Lewis Shorsad of the novel Smithy. Emily is out on maternity leave. She had a lovely little girl in September, so Lewis will be joining us to co host a few episodes, and this is one of the ones we're so lucky to have him on. So thank you so much to Lewis for joining. And for those who don't know, Lewis is such a good friend of the podcast and of Emily and I at Golden May. We've worked with him in so many different ways, and I just have such a fun time. Every single time we do it, we just spent, like an hour talking about anime, which is super fun. So, Lewis, before we jump in, could you tell us where people normally can find you when you're not co hosting an episode with me?
[01:17] Lewis: Yeah, normally people can find [email protected]. That's sort of where all my stuff lives. But at least for the next couple of episodes, you can also find me here, which will be really exciting. I'm very stoked. I've always been too anxious to start my own podcast, but this gives me a chance to get some practice in.
[01:36] Rachel: Just feel it out. See what you like.
[01:37] Lewis: Maybe you can convince me.
[01:39] Rachel: I think I can. I think I can. Because the last episode we recorded, you were like, hell will freeze over. And this time we're like, maybe it can happen.
[01:47] Lewis: I'm warming up. Little by little, hell is thawing. But, yeah, this will be really fun. I'm very excited, especially for this topic, because for anyone who is already familiar with me, I'm sort of famously not a mindset guy. I have always been a very beat your head against that wall until you figure it out kind of person, which is not the most healthy approach. And I'm slowly sort of learning and shifting. So I have lots of questions for you.
[02:13] Rachel: Oh, I love it. And this is something that I feel really passionate about, consistency and sustainability in your writing routine, because for so long, I was inconsistent and I had no idea why. And I used to beat myself up for it, and I had no idea how to find consistency that didn't look like me nose to the grindstone or me shaming myself to the page in order to be consistent or stay consistent. So I'm really excited to talk about this too, because there's so many different facets of this Conversation that people of all sorts of experiences should know or need to know or want to feel like they know what to do in order to develop that consistency. So where should we start? Should we start with just like, what does consistency mean? What are we talking about?
[03:07] Lewis: Yeah, I would love to, especially because I think there's a lot of ways you could, like, different people might think of what consistency is. So I'd love to know, when you all talk about creating a consistent, and I think also not just consistent, but like a sustainable, healthy writing practice, what does that look like? What does that mean?
[03:28] Rachel: Yes. Okay. So when I say those words consistent and sustainable, and I actually have defined them for Our writing community, tenacious writing. Consistency is the idea that your routine has a general sense of regularity. And besides that, I don't really define how often or what that means, but the vibes of consistency is that you're Just able to show up with a sense of regularity over a long period of time. However, that looks like, it looks like forward moving progress without feeling so disconnected from your story that you almost have to start from square one. Paired with that, holding hands with that idea of consistency is the idea of sustainability. And to me that means the idea of carrying this habit through easy times, hard times, good times, tough times. It means that you are able to listen to the natural ebbs and flows of the process of your body, and you're able to show up to your page, to your writing process from a place of ease and fulfillment rather than a place of burden. So consistency is like you can do it regularly, and sustainability is like you don't get thrown off your game if something happens. And I think those two things paired together result in the writing life that feels good, that makes progress, accomplishes your goals, and doesn't kill you while you're doing it, doesn't drive you straight into a burnout hole. That's what it means to me. Yeah.
[05:09] Lewis: That definition is really interesting and strikes me a lot, and I say this again, sort of from a place of learning, slightly ignorance, trying to get better. I think earlier in my life, and I've been slowly starting to get better at this, but I still hold it sort of subconsciously, is the idea that, well, a sustainable writing routine is like you write when you feel like it, like avoiding burnout means you're just writing when you feel like it. But sometimes writing is going to be hard. And so you just kind of as reductive as the butt in chair mantra is, there is a small kernel of truth there. And so I've always had a hard time reconciling those two ideas. But the way you described it just now is different than how I've ever heard it described. It's like you described it as. No, you are showing up regularly and it's not a burden. You're not having to force yourself to do it, which raises a lot of questions around. But how does that work? Because as much as I adore, obviously, this topic and get tremendous joy from it, life gets busy and you get tired. And sometimes the last thing you want to do is to sit down and work on another project, if that makes sense.
[06:27] Rachel: Yes. Oh, it absolutely does. I would love to just have this be the conversation between us, because part of my response to that is that there is a practical, realist side of this to where to get things done, you have to do things right. You got to sit down and you got to write. But then the other part of me is like, but if you're tearing your hair out to write this book, don't. Don't do it. I think there's two sides to this coin, and the how iS, like, the bridge between them. Like the how is we're going to get there. But part of what I want to say is that if it's feeling like a burden, if it's feeling like you're forcing yourself to do it, I think there's a really big problem. At the same time, I also know that people have deadlines. We have to make money in order to live. Some of us, this is our jobs, and so we have to produce a certain amount in order to sustain the life that we live. And I think there's a reality to that. And I don't think these are two conflicting ideas. I think there's a way to bridge them through the mindset that you have. And in no way does the stuff that I teach or adhere to is, like, when writing is hard, don't do it, like, just flat out. But there is absolutely a very strong undercurrent of, like, if you're experiencing a really tough writing day, is one day that you skip that's better for your health really going to affect your bottom line? So I think there's an awareness that's at the key of this conversation of like, okay, why am I feeling such a resistance? Where is this coming from? And what are the drivers behind what I'm doing that I need to reevaluate like, what's the mindset that I'm having? What's the resistance that I'm hitting? What's the fear? Why is this so hard? Because, again, in no way does my view of, well, if you don't want to write, then just don't write. Mean, when times are tough, you don't have to. Does that make sense?
[08:51] Lewis: No, that does make sense. That absolutely makes sense. So that's really interesting. Again, for anyone who's familiar with me from any other circle, I'm usually fairly open about the fact that I really, really struggle with perfectionism. Like crippling, cannot get out of bed perfectionism. It's just very deeply ingrained in my brain, and slowly, it's been a very long process. I'm, like, trying to dig my way out of that, but it's hard. It doesn't always work. And there are still very specific parts of my writing process that I have not untangled from that perfectionism. I guess part of my resistance to a lot of the creative mindset things that people talk about is like, well, when it feels really hard, you can give yourself permission not to do it. And my response is like, it always feels hard. I hate doing. I hate writing first draft with an aggressive, burning passion. No part of it brings me joy, but I love the story, if that makes sense. It's like, I love what it will create. It's just the act of writing. That first draft triggers every bit of self doubt in my brain, even to this day. For anyone out there listening who's like, me too, it's like, yeah, I've been working at this for almost a decade now. It's hard. It just is. And so if I didn't continue to push forward in the face of that, I would never write anything. And that's always been a struggle for me. And at first I just assumed that the advice was wrong. And I've since learned that, no, the advice is right. I'm just struggling with a specific mental block that I haven't quite found my way around. But that definition feels like it resonates a lot more than what I've heard in the past.
[10:39] Rachel: Yeah. So if you don't mind, I'd love to ask you a couple of questions. Do you want to be like, full on poaching guinea pig right now, Lewis, sitting up straight in my chair? Okay. This is such a very cool place to start. And I love that we're having this conversation because you're not alone in these feelings, nor are you alone. You're not alone in the feelings that this is hard. You're not alone in the feelings that a lot of writing is hard, and you're not alone in the feelings that perfectionism is debilitating. A lot of times. But as you speak and as I hear you talk, and I feel like I know you fairly well from the work we've done together over the last few years, that's where I would start, and I would be like, well, Lewis, if perfectionism is debilitating to you, what's your root fear in your perfectionism? What are you afraid of?
[11:33] Lewis: Wow. Really? I know I'm public podcast.
[11:38] Rachel: You don't have to answer that if you don't want to. But that's where I'm.
[11:42] Lewis: I mean, I'll try to answer. That's a tough question, though, and it's something I've thought about, because I can't say I'm 100% sure what it is not to get real deep. I come from an upbringing where failure is very much not an option. B's and C's were not a thing in my schooling. I started my life very much as an academic. I still have to stop myself from putting footnotes in things, because, God help me, I was in academia for a very long time, and I loved it. But it was a very competitive aspect of, like, failure isn't an option. But I also think I'm in a sort of unique position in that this is also my job. So, for anyone out there who writing is, you have to write to sustain a living, to pay rent, to eat food, to not die. There's also that pressure of, like, if it's not good enough, then I also can't pay rent. I can't afford to live. And that's a scary thing. And so often my brain is like, so, do nothing. And I'm like, that's a terrible idea. We have to do something. But, yeah, it's complicated. There's a lot of stuff to it that I haven't fully unpacked yet. But I'd say that's the surface level of what I can see at this point.
[13:10] Rachel: Okay, this is so great, because here is where, when I think of the writing experience and it being hard, I want to get at the heart with a client, not necessarily with you right on this podcast right now, but with a writer who's struggling with this. To build the consistency you have to get at, why is it not consistent? And then to get at, in this case, why is it not consistent? It's because I wrote down three things that I'm hearing you have a very strong desire for safety. You have a really strong desire to feel enough. And when you don't feel those things, or when you're at risk of not feeling those things, you avoid pretty standard perfectionism. What I mean by that is you're not alone. I think that's at the heart of a lot of people with perfectionism, is the idea that we get into our perfectionist tendencies to keep ourselves safe and to hopefully feel validated, hopefully feel that we are enough. So when you feel all of this pressure, all of this resistance, all of the avoidance, and like, writing is so hard to get to that consistent place, it's because of these feelings of fear of not being safe, fear of unsafe. And I also want to say I am drawing some statements on you, so that might not be accurate.
[14:48] Lewis: Yeah, we are in a podcast setting, but no, I hear what you're saying, and I think there's a lot of wisdom to that.
[14:53] Rachel: Yeah. So I don't want to make it seem like I'm therapizing you, because I'm not. But I do want to say that draw or that drive for feelings of validation and safety are where I would start with a journey towards consistency. Because the longer that you have those fears, and again, asterisks, it's not easy to get rid of them. So we can circle back on that. But as long as those fears are driving, every time you sit down at the page, it's going to be really hard to build consistency, because the fear is the thing that's making it hard. I heard you say first draft, but it's the fear that makes the first draft hard. There's process, there's the way our brain works. And I want to acknowledge that every writer's brain is different, and first drafts might be naturally more difficult to you. But it sounds like the reason the first draft is so hard, or the reason to, is because you're trying to make it perfect, because you feel like you'll be safe if you do that. So if we can work through that core and give you safety elsewhere, or build self trust in yourself, the consistency. Sorry, let me stick back. If we can give you safety elsewhere, build that feeling of self trust and continue to build the feelings of enoughness, the pressure lessens. It becomes less challenging to show up consistency because you're not driven by those fears. So what's coming to your head with that?
[16:30] Lewis: Many thoughts that would be more appropriate for a therapy session? I'll save people that. No, I'm just. That's so that's interesting. I am a very die hard puzzler for anyone who's familiar with it's. I learned it from Sarah Cannon, if anyone knows her work. But it is very planning centric. But it's sort of like you have these ideas and you sort of piece them together into, you don't necessarily plan it all out linearly, but I really enjoy the planning aspect. I enjoy taking the pieces and getting to be high level and sort of strategic and see the bigger picture. And I think part of why I hate first drafts is then I have to drill down and worry about each individual word. And I'm just like, this is going to sound weird. I don't care about each individual word because I know I'm going to rewrite it all in a later draft. Love it. Because my process is like, I write the first draft and then I rewrite it from scratch for the second because I get a better final result that way. But that's a little in the weeds. But what's standing out to me is something that I've talked about with a lot of students is that outlining a novel, it helps you figure out the story, but it also gives you a sense of psychological safety in that you can trust the work your past self did. So if you get to the end of the outlining process and you can tell me with confidence that, yes, I like this story and I feel comfortable with it, then when a student comes to me, they're halfway through their first draft and they're like, I hate this story. Everything's falling apart. I'm panicking. I can say three months ago you told me you trusted this outline. So what's changed? And usually it's that nothing's changed. They're just second guessing it. And that's really standing out with what you're saying of a lot of that perfectionism and that fear that can kind of drive you away from writing or make it feel really difficult, is that you're maybe missing some of that psychological safety or there's something there that you don't feel secure, and so your brain is saying, well, don't do.
[18:44] Rachel: Yes. Yeah. And that's why I think so much of writing is mindset. So we're going to talk about this really cool thing that Lewis and I are doing with another creative, we're putting together this workshop on creative mindset. So more about that. But Lewis, when we were talking to plan the workshop, one of the things that we talked about was I had said that writing without mindset or, oh, my gosh, what did I say now? Now I can't remember. Process without mindset falls apart. Like, process will fall apart. You will not be able to write if your mindset is in that funky zone. And I think for a period of time, you can push forward for a period of time, you can strong arm yourself for a period of time, you can shame yourself into working. But eventually, if you don't have that mindset in a solid place, the second guessing makes you stop, versus you're still going to second guess. I don't want people to take away that. When you work on your mindset, everything is beautiful all the time, and it's perfect, and you're able to show up every day and like, wow, you're so amazing as a writer. That's not what it does. But what it does is when you have your mindset in a really solid place, when you have the second guessing, when you hit that midpoint and you're like, oh, my God, everything's falling apart, you can take a deep breath. You can say, you know what? I'm just second guessing right now because I'm afraid that I'm wasting time, or I'm afraid that it's not working right, or I'm afraid whatever reason. And then you can say, this is just my inner critic voice. I can move forward. So the inner critic voices don't go away, but it becomes like, your mindset knows how to handle them, how to deal with them, how to bring awareness to when those voices become super duper loud. You can stop them. But without that mindset work, the process falls apart. And that's when I think burnout happens. Not the only time that burnout happens, but I think that's when we get to burnout, is when we try to force through all these resistance pieces, because we're literally just shaming ourself to work versus trying to get at the root of what is our resistance. And in doing that, we create sustainability. And the sustainability is what prevents the burnout. So I think it's all connected. Just, like, picture me with this giant board with all these red lines in murder mysteries where they're trying to connect all the dots. Like, mindset is at the top, and then there's all these red lines that are connecting.
[21:23] Lewis: Yeah. I'm picturing you as Charlie Day.
[21:25] Rachel: Exactly within my head. Yes.
[21:30] Lewis: I know. This is something, like, we could do, like, 20 episodes on and fully psychoanalyze me, which might be a little uncomfortable. I'm actually thinking about a student of mine at the moment. Something that we've been talking about together is that as she works, she has a very clear place in the story. She always gets stuck. It doesn't matter what draft it is, how much we've worked on it together, how confident she is that it works. She hits about 30,000 words, and her brain just says, I hate this story. I never want to touch it again. And then she's like, well, what do I do now? And nothing about the story has changed. It's just something about she hits that point, and we've been describing it as you're out running your inner editor, and at about that point in the story, your inner editor catches up with you. And being not the mindset guy, I haven't really been sure where to direct her on that we've talked through. I can appeal to the logic brain. I can say, like, okay, well, let's look at your story. And we can look at it beat by beat. And everything's here that's supposed to be. Everything is working the way you want it to. From an editor's standpoint, this is really strong. It's just some barrier is hitting you. And obviously she's not here. And I don't want to armchair diagnose, but I'm getting a sense that maybe some of what you're talking about would sort of affect her as well, and that there's something about that point in the story where she starts to second guess herself and it sort of forms that cycle.
[23:05] Rachel: Yes. And I think your initial feelings of, like, her inner editor is catching up to her is probably pretty close. I had a very similar client who I've talked about on the podcast before, but she would start a draft, get to a point where she hated it, and then scrap the whole thing and start a brand new story. And she did this for literally 15 years. She probably had, like, 20 to 30 half written stories before she came to me and was like, I don't know how to finish a story, but all of the craft knowledge is there. And we would have lots of discussions about outlining and planning, but we would hit a point where she would lose faith. And then after that, everything fell apart. And it was so difficult to get her to finish the draft. We explored so much about perfectionism, so much about the idea of, so this is where I'm going to bring it back to hustle culture for a second. Because in hustle culture, it tells us that we have to create on a timeline and that the more time we huge air quotes everybody waste, the less valuable we are as people. So in her head, she got to a tough part, and subconsciously her brain was saying, you're wasting time. This is a waste of time. You can't figure it out. You might as well just start over. And she would go, start over. Where I'm getting at with her is that she was feeling this layer of hustle culture. She was also feeling this layer of perfectionism and fear that she wasn't good enough, that she was going to hit this point anyway by the end. So she might as well hit it at 30,000 words, whatever it is. And she had very little self trust, confidence in herself that if she did move forward, she could figure it out. So with this client in particular, we took, actually, a really aggressive drafting strategy to outrun the inner critic. So we had her drafts literally as fast as she possibly could, and no stopping, no second guessing, no anything. She finished a draft, and after she finished that first draft ever that she had ever written, she finally finished a draft. She realized, oh, it's not that scary anymore. Because I also think at some point it became a self fulfilling prophecy of, like, I'm going to hit the roadblock. Oh, my God, I'm so afraid of that. So I think I agree with you that she's having her inner critic voices come at a point in time before that she was able to avoid the inner critic. And then she gets to a point where the inner critic is like, this isn't good, or, it's about time for you to have a meltdown. Is it now? And then she's like, oh, my God. The solution, I think, is to explore where those feelings are coming from. Like, what's the fear? And with this client in particular, we did talk for a long time about, what is the root of your perfectionism? Because she even argued with me for, like, a solid two or three months that she had perfectionism at all. And I was like, no, you have it. She would laugh now because we worked together for, like, three years, and she knows now she has pretty solid perfectionism. But at the root of it, it's one of those fears. And once you identify the fear, you can think about, like, okay, how can in storytelling, when you have an internal goal, like, a character has an internal goal, the thing they're searching for, it means they don't have it yet. Writers usually feel the same way. I think most people do. It's not just writers, but we're searching for something, safety, validation, enoughness. So we're looking for that in the context of our pages. And it's going to be hard. Like, writing is going to be hard. We're not going to feel that inner goal all the time. So we develop other ways to give us the inner goal or understand how to address, like, actually you are safe. I think I talked with this writer of, like, literally, what's the worst that could happen if you wrote the next thousand words? And she would be like, I don't know. I'm like, let's try it. So we would ask all sorts of questions about, like, is there any way that we can make this easier on you? What's the worst that could happen if you did this? Can we try XYZ mental option? I even would do sprints with her. This was just me and this individual client. But when she was struggling, she would text me and be like, I'm literally sitting up a page, wide eyed and blank. What do I do? And I'd be like, hey, I'm free. You want to do a sprint together? And we would do a sprint together. So we tried a lot of different things to try and unblock that. I'm not saying that your particular client has, like, an easy. This is what I would do, but I do think it comes back to the root of that fear. And outrunning those voices only lasts for so long. You have to address the voices.
[28:29] Lewis: Yeah. Okay. That's interesting on a couple of levels. One, because I do agree with you, eventually you have to figure out where that inner editor, what is giving it its strength. Think in anime terms, because we had an hour long conversation before this. Where is it drawing its strength? But I mean, it's also interesting on a practical level. Something that I think we're going to eventually talk about on one of these when I'm co hosting is I've been working on something that I'm calling intuitive outlining. And I won't get super into it here because I don't want to derail us too much. And this isn't just me patting myself on the back, but it is making me feel slightly better that I'm not just a total train wreck in terms of mindset.
[29:18] Rachel: You're not.
[29:20] Lewis: I think I've been slowly trying to grasp at some of this because what you described with her is like, the solution that you found was for her to write that first draft as fast as possible and just not worry about to just get it done. And one of the things that I've been sort of working on in my own writing process is the idea of always writing forward and always touching your first draft in some way. So the idea of, like, if it's a rough day, you don't have to say your goal is to write 500 words a day. If it's a rough day, you don't have to write 500 words that day. Life happens sometimes. It's just not the time. But you have to touch your draft. And that might be you wrote five words. It might be you wrote one word. It might be you changed a period to a comma. It might be you read through your outline, or you said, I'm going to take 15 minutes and just daydream about my story, because that's what makes me happy, because you're keeping it in your brain so your brain can chew on it a little bit. And the idea of writing forward in that, okay, in my students case, you've written 30,000 words, and now you're second guessing yourself, and you decide you want to change something. I think there's a root of that second guessing that maybe is coming from the wrong place. But say you do decide to change something, don't then second guess everything you've already written. Just change it, and pretend you had that genius plan the whole time and just write forward. So, long story short, it's both educating for me on having someone call out maybe what I've been subconsciously thinking about, on what I'm struggling with, but also a little validating that I'm starting to get there. This was just very helpful. Yeah, this was very helpful.
[31:13] Rachel: Good.
[31:13] Lewis: Yeah, hopefully. What's everyone listening to? And was it just a therapy session for me?
[31:17] Rachel: No, because I think when we first started talking, one of the questions that you had with this approach of writing, when you feel like it is, you brought this up earlier of like, but I also have obligations, and I don't always feel like it. And we touched on that in the sense of, well, we've got to get at the root of why do you feel the way you do? But at the same time, I think so many writers are in the space that you're in, where we've been conditioned to feel like if we don't do something, we have lost value to our society. And I think that's the problem with hustle culture. I think hustle culture creates these ideas of production above all, and doing something above all is better than doing nothing. And then also the idea that rest is a waste of time and that if you are resting, you're doing something wrong. And how dare you? How dare you? Literally that dramatic. Sometimes it feels like, how dare you take a day off? Because you have goals, you have to achieve them. You have things to do, you have obligations. And all those things are accurate and still remain true. And I also recognize that I speak from a vast place of privilege in a lot of the work that I do, where I can afford to take a day of rest. But here's my point. When you rest with shame, which stems from hustle culture, it's not doing anything for you. So even on those days when you're like, oh, I feel so terrible, I'm going to take a day off. If you're feeling guilty about it, you're not helping anything, and you're not contributing to the healing that your body needs. And that is almost more harmful to your process than just pushing through it. I can't rate them, but you know what I mean of this concept of you work yourself to the bone to where you have to take a day off because you're burnt out or you're sick or whatever it is, but by the time you get there and you have felt the shame of taking that day off, you're not healing. So what we do instead is like, okay, let's take a step back. I cannot afford to take a day off. That's okay. What can we do to incorporate rest without guilt? If you take an hour of rest without guilt, to me, that is 1000 times better than taking a whole day off. But feeling like shit the entire time and resting, this is another thing that's hard. When you're so steeped in the hustle culture values and you're so steeped in these ideas of literally your output can determine the amount of money that you make. When that is your reality, it feels bad to not create. It does. And that's the time where I'm like, okay, you're uncomfortable. We got to sit with how uncomfortable this is. We got to push through with this uncomfortableness. We got to put boundaries around our rest time and think of, why do I feel so uncomfortable? What is the inner critic saying? Is this true, or is this a twisted version of truth? Does it have to be my reality? Or can I think about it a little bit differently? Because, again, I want to go back to, like, if you can't take a day off because of your life, you don't have to take a day off to still have productive resT. That's the point is like, sustainability and consistency in your routine come from taking care of yourself. And taking care of yourself comes from resting without shame and guilt. When we have the guilt in there and the shame in there, that's when rest feels bad. When they say that change is uncomfortable, that is a very uncomfortable zone for a lot of people, is getting from the time where they take rest, but it feels shitty to the time where they take rest and it feels neutral. There's uncomfortability in between those things, but that's where work has to happen, too. This is where I think perfectionism can get caught up. When you rest, you feel unsafe because you're not produced. Not you in general, Lewis, but like you, Lewis, take a day off.
[35:59] Lewis: No, but like we joked at the beginning of this that I was going to fight you on mindset. So fight me, Lewis.
[36:07] Rachel: Take a damn day off and stop feeling bad about it.
[36:10] Lewis: Well, so that's my follow up question. I don't want to cut you off, but that's my follow up question of, I am aware that I am very burnt out. Like, I've been burnt out for probably a year and a half now. I'm just tired always. And I know that I have to address that, but I haven't found a way to address that yet because, for instance, I'm not in a position where I can just take time off. And even when I do take time off, it doesn't seem to make a meaningful difference. And so what I'm drawing from this is that there's a deeper level of mindset. Work that has to happen before you can really recover from burnout. Because just not doing work for a couple of weeks, like taking a vacation, that's not going to heal the burnout. There's a deeper level.
[36:58] Rachel: You're absolutely right. So I have a client that I started working with in this past January. So we're recording this in October. So ten months I've been working with this client. She came to me. She's a teacher in the American school system. That's almost a given. You're going to be burnt out. Right. She's been a teacher for ten years. She's also writing her book. She's on draft five. She came to me with such high hopes. Very like, oh, I can't wait to have a one on one book coach. I can't wait to write my draft by week three. It was so evident to me that she was so burnt out from her job that it was impacting not only her writing life, it was impacting her sleep, it was impacting the way that she viewed herself. Like her self belief and her self esteem. It was impacting her relationships. So we spend at least half of all of our coaching time talking about burnout. And belief like burnout and mindset, because it's not something you heal from quickly. And the reality is she can't stop being a teacher. That's her job. And it's the same with the work that you and I do. Lewis, you're not going to heal from Burnout in a short period of time, but we have to work in intentional rest without guilt. So for her, what that looked like at first was the second half of Saturday. So, like, from noon until Saturday night, she rested without guilt. I got her into Yona of the dawn. She watched. I know, Lewis. She watched Yona of the Dawn.
[38:26] Lewis: Anime love.
[38:27] Rachel: Yes, anime love. But we literally looked at her whole week and we carved out small periods of rest where she could play games. She played video games so she could play games. The only rule was no work and no writing. And like anything else was fair game. If she wanted to sleep, if she wanted to read a book, whatever it was that felt creatively healing. We started really small and we built really hard boundaries around that time. And then we worked up to a whole day. So then it was like Saturday, no writing, no work, no writing rest. And then we were like, feeling pretty good. And then we worked in Wednesday night. So we added in a little bit at a time to kind of get used to these feelings of rest without guilt. And slowly she started. We also talked a lot about, sorry, this is my ADHD brain bouncing around a lot. Have you heard of revenge bedtime procrastination?
[39:24] Lewis: I haven't, but the name is fairly descriptive.
[39:30] Rachel: It's either a Japanese term or a ChineSe term. I have not seen a real consensus on where it stems from, but it's this idea that at night you're so busy during the day, you work so hard during the day that at nighttime you literally have to revenge procrastinate. So you go to bed later and you stay up because this is the only time of day that you have to rest.
[39:51] Lewis: Feel so attacked. You said fight me. Yeah. No. So I am intrinsically just a night owl. My internal clock is just shifted, which has taken a long time to accept. Again, growing up, being told that I'm lazy for staying up all day and then not getting up in the morning. But yeah, as soon as I decide it's time to go to bed, no matter how much I've been working all day, I immediately. Or I could stay up for the next 5 hours and do like twelve more things.
[40:22] Rachel: Yes.
[40:22] Lewis: And I'm like, I just want to sleep.
[40:25] Rachel: So we worked on that because that's a real thing because we would talk about it. She would be like, I didn't sleep good. And I was like, why? And she was like, why? I was up really late. And I was like, why? She was like, well, I felt so stressed out at work that the only time I could really decompress was right before bed. And I scrolled on Instagram for 2 hours and I was like, I have zero problem with scrolling on Instagram. I do it all the time. But you have to be aware of what you're doing. You're scrolling on Instagram because you're overstimulated and because you're overworked and because you're burnt out. And this is the only way that you can check out of your bodily experience. That's what it does to our brains. So we worked through that and now we are. Long story. Ten months later and she's healing Jarrant form, she's in progress. And every week that she encounters a new struggle, like parent teacher conferences, she's like, oh my gosh, this week is so busy, but it doesn't result in a spiral out of control where she loses her entire writing routine. Now it's able to result in, I worked one less day this week because I needed an extra day of rest. And she's made more progress in the last ten months as we consciously addressed her burnout than she did in the past, like three or four years. It really is the type of work that if you take the pauses that you need now, you can be more productive again in massive air quotes, productive later. But we're given these feelings, these beliefs that if we stop being productive, we are losing time, losing money, we're not going to be able to survive again. It comes back to safety. But your avoidance is causing you to be able to do less work. So if you address your avoidance, you could do more work. It's like the circular view of you've got to address the root thing before you can be less avoidant. But if you were less avoidant, you would actually be doing more. So ten out of ten times, this is true for me, this is true for my clients, this is true for our writers in the tenacious writing community. The more they incorporated rest into their routine, the more they did, the more writing they were able to accomplish and they were more. Again, I don't love the word productive because to me it has all sorts of ties to hustle culture, but like, literally, the more they were able to do because they were no longer feeling like the burden of existential crisis, of burnout so does that help? I mean, it's not something you heal from quickly, and it's also not something that you have to just take an extended vacation from. Like, the reality is you can't do that. So that's not a solution for you. So we can build it in. In small pieces and ramp up. And the more you take the rest, the better you feel in those other times that you're not resting.
[43:27] Lewis: No, this was fantastic. And I know I can't keep you for like the next 4 hours. So when exactly are you coming to my community to teach about?
[43:38] Rachel: Whenever.
[43:39] Lewis: You know, this is really great. I really, deeply appreciate it.
[43:42] Rachel: Yes.
[43:42] Lewis: Awesome. I know we're technically on your podcast, but this was also really helpful for me personally.
[43:46] Rachel: This is my podcast. Thank you for coming.
[43:51] Lewis: You can armchair diagnose me any day.
[43:53] Rachel: I love it. This is such a fun part of my job. No, but I think that your experience is not alone. So I think a lot of people are in a very similar space. And this is the work that we do in our one on one. And this is the work that we do in our tenacious writing community. And this is also the work that we're going to start doing in the workshop we're hosting together, which I am literally so excited about. Okay, so the workshop. Let me tell you guys about it. So the workshop is on Creative mindset, on creative process. It is on November 18. So pull out your calendars. Mark that day down. You are going to our creative mindset workshop with Lewis, with me, and with our very good friend Tiffany Grimes from Virgin Design and editorial. The three of us are hosting it. So when this podcast come out, we're going to be marketing the workshop. This is your full invitation to come check it out. We will each be hosting three different classes, and then we'll have like a joint class at the end of the day. So it's a full day of let's talk about this stuff. Let's talk about creative mindset. Let's talk about healing process. Let's talk about how to develop the routine that fits for you and your life. There are no prescriptions. There are no. Here are the seven steps to perfect success. It's not about that. It's about you as a person with your unique life. How do we build that sustainability and that consistency that feels right to you and that looks right for your life? So that will be again on November 18. All of the details for this amazing workshop with the three of us are in the show notes. So swipe up right now, tap that link on the show notes. Go look at the workshop and we hope to see you there. What else, Lewis? Am I missing anything?
[45:51] Lewis: I don't think you're missing anything, but I'll put it this way. If, Rachel, you can shake my entire sense of self in 45 minutes, imagine what you're going to do in 90 minutes for everyone who attends. So, yeah, the idea is we're each going to be teaching about a 60 to 90 in a minute workshop throughout the day. And then at the end, we're going to have sort of just a roundtable space where everyone can chat a bit more conversationally and sort of ask questions and talk through stuff. You can ask what felt somewhat embarrassing at the start, but hopefully will not by the end, mindset questions and have a really great chat. So it should be a really fun event, and I will be attending both of your talks because I know that I need them.
[46:34] Rachel: I'm so excited. Thank you for your vulnerability today. We did not plan to take our conversation in this direction, but I think.
[46:42] Lewis: No, we started this saying we were going to talk about story points.
[46:46] Rachel: We sure did. You're right.
[46:48] Lewis: I was lured here on the promise that I could talk about suspension of disbelief.
[46:55] Rachel: If you're ever a guest on my podcast, be prepared.
[46:59] Lewis: Be prepared. It's going to get deep, folks.
[47:02] Rachel: It sure is.
[47:03] Lewis: No, this is great. I tease, but I really appreciate it.
[47:05] Rachel: I love it. Okay, awesome. So check out that worksheet Workshop. Check out that workshop, Lewis, thank you again for guest hosting today. Lewis will be guest hosting us for a couple of weeks, so we will see him next week. All right. If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list. Sign up now to get our free email course. The Magic of Character arcs. After seven days of email Magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night. Link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye.
