[00:13] Rachel: Hey, writers. Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
[00:18] Emily: I'm Emily.
[00:19] Rachel: And I'm Rachel, and today we are.
[00:23] Emily: Going to talk about the versatility of your writing process or how versatile it can and maybe should be. Yeah, we're like overflowing with stuff, guys. We had to hit. Save it, save it. So you were just telling me before we hopped on about a conversation you were having with a new TW member. Why don't we start there and you can tell me the full story, since I didn't get the full story, and we can share it with everyone. One, and then we could jump right from there.
[00:53] Rachel: All right, I'd love to. Okay, so I had a conversation with one of our newer, tenacious writing members because she said she was a panther. I am also a panther. Surprise, surprise podcast. You've all heard this before, and we're going to talk about labels. We have a thing to say about labels.
[01:13] Emily: We have a lot of things.
[01:16] Rachel: She had just recently joined. I was checking in with her to be like, how are you doing in the program? Is there anything you need help with? And she had basically said that she was trying to think about her writing process differently, and she was trying to get through all the content we had available because TW is like a freaking meaty program. There's so much content in it. So she was expressing how she was trying to get through the content that we had and trying to put it into her writing process right away and feeling a little bit overwhelmed by that. And I was asking her, what do you mean? You're thinking about your writing process differently? What's going on? But also, I totally understand there's so much in there. Tell me more about what you're thinking. And she had said how she was always approached and always taught. And I identify with some of this because I feel like I had a similar experience, which is why we're having such a great conversation. So I'm going to paraphrase what she said and then probably add in a little bit of my own editorializing. But she was saying how she had kind of always been taught that craft is the fix, craft is the solution, and that if you're learning craft from a master or from someone teaching it or from whoever, that the right way for craft to work is to immediately do exactly what they said. So she was like, I'm trying to do what you said in all of these classes. I'm trying to put it into my writing right away. And I'm trying to adapt my writing right now to everything that I'm learning. And we chatted for a little bit longer, and I was like, you know what? Craft is not a fix. Panthers are not broken. Plotters are not perfect. I think there's this whole binary, which is why I wanted to talk about labels of, like, if you do all the right things, everything will work out perfectly in your story. And number one, that's not true, but number two, I don't think we should approach learning craft in any capacity as a fixing tool, but also something that you immediately need to put into your writing process. So I was telling her, when you're learning craft, you're learning theory. Absorb the theory, absorb the lessons. Try to make sure that you understand what it means to have a story point before you instantly try to put story point on every piece of part of your page. So we had a good conversation about, especially for. I think this is true of everybody, but in our personal experiences as panthers, it feels really important to know that craft is like, you learn the lessons, but then you decide how they work. I would never recommend that a writer go take a class and then immediately be like, this is exactly what I should do for my own writing process, with no careful consideration. Is this actually going to work for me? And we don't teach our classes that way. We try really carefully not to. We try to teach the theory so that a writer can apply it in any way that works for their writing process. Because I don't do a lot of the craft stuff that people say you should do before you start writing. I don't do it until I feel like doing it, which could be until at the end of act one or at the end of a finished draft, or, like, in draft two, I just kind of, like, lean into my process.
[05:11] Emily: Yeah.
[05:12] Rachel: Anyway, long story.
[05:14] Emily: No, I think this topic is so important because I feel like there is this misconception or myth that if you can find the craft method that works for you, then you're going to have an a to z roadmap that's going to prevent you from failure. Right. And it all comes back to this, like we talked about with Jocelyn recently, this fear of this perfectionist. Right? Fear of having to go back, having to revise doing something wrong. Right. There's this idea that, like, oh, well, if I just become a plotter and do from idea to outline, which is our course, which walks you through from idea to outline. Right.
[05:56] Rachel: Then.
[05:59] Emily: I'll have exactly the right story and I can draft, and it will be right from idea to outline. And this is the tricky part about teaching craft, right. We kind of have to teach it in a way where the pieces build on each other because that's important from an educational standpoint. In order for people to be able to learn, they have to see how the pieces of craft fit together and how the way that we look at stories kind of make it make sense. If we just bounced around, people would be very confused. So we lay it out in this very linear fashion. But almost no one actually plots or writes that way.
[06:39] Rachel: At least not like every single time.
[06:42] Emily: Yeah, one time it might work for you to go from a to z, but usually there's a lot of bouncing from a to m to b to w, right, and back around, and that's normal.
[06:56] Rachel: And I think people feel like, oh.
[06:58] Emily: If I've gotten halfway through this outlining course, whether it's ours or someone else's, but I just want a draft. Right, but that's wrong because I haven't finished it yet.
[07:07] Rachel: Exactly.
[07:08] Emily: That's somehow like the wrong way to do it. And it's not really. Craft is just, I say this all the time because it's so important to remember, even for myself, craft is just a set of tools, and you get to pull out the tools whenever in your process they work for you. And that means that you can go in any which way that you want at any part of the process. And I think that flexibility is really important, both for your joy and play in the process, but also for the efficiency of it. Because if you're trying to force yourself into an a to z path, chances.
[07:48] Rachel: Are you're going to get stuck a.
[07:50] Emily: Lot because you're not following where the story wants to take you and where your inspiration wants to take you. You're trying to follow this roadmap of shoulds.
[07:58] Rachel: Exactly. I think people create a lot of their own resistance in those ways. Like you're creating your own resistance by telling yourself it has to be a certain way, and if it's not this way, nothing will work. And then you work yourself into a stuck point, a sticking point, and you're like, I don't know how to get out of it because I'm supposed to do something this way and it's just not working. And then I'm like, don't do it that way. Do something different. Try write something that doesn't make sense or switch around a different part of the process or take a breath. Whatever it is, there's a thousand different ways. But anyway, yeah, I think we're told this narrative of should, and if we don't follow the should, then it's never going to work. And that creates so many more problems than if you just are like, I don't know. I like to think of my writing process right now. This is a me in the moment, okay? I'm just fucking around. I'm just, like, having a good time. I'm just trying to get more words down, and not in a productivity way, but in, hey, can I keep stepping forward? And what do I need in order to take that next step? I'm like, okay, well, I need this, so let me pop over here and do this thing. Okay, now I can come back and take some more steps forward in a draft. I think people should have a much more playful and explorative idea of their process than what they usually have, which can feel really rigid and structured.
[09:39] Emily: Yeah. So you talked a little bit about being a panther, and I'm a plotter, and I think plotters, I would say I'm mostly a plotter, and this is where I'm going to kind of break down. Like, I really am starting to not like those labels because I feel like there are times for plotting and there are times for pancing for every writer. I really feel that. And so I feel like we're all planters. There is no such thing as someone who only plots because eventually they're going to have to get words down and explore, and that's going to require deviating from their plan. Right. And same with a panther. At some point, you're going to have to stop and look at the structure of what you have and figure out where you want to go from there. And that is technically plotting.
[10:28] Rachel: Yeah.
[10:29] Emily: As a plotter, I started the sequel to my duology, and the first month was really hard because the first book, I plotted it a lot, and that's because I did a lot of, like, when I look back on the process, I did a lot of exploratory drafting when I was stuck in act one. Revising because I was stuck in act one for like a year, kept rewriting it, and that was me exploring and also totally feeding my perfectionist brain and not letting myself move forward. I mean, talk about that separately. But after all of that was done and I finally figured out what I wanted my story to be, I had a very detailed outline and the very first book that I wrote, like, several years ago, which is not published yet, I also outlined that very heavily. And for that story, it worked really well for me to outline in detail. And so for this one, I was.
[11:32] Rachel: Like, great, I'll just outline it and.
[11:34] Emily: Everything will be fine.
[11:36] Rachel: Yay.
[11:37] Emily: And for a month, it was so hard. I kept showing up because that's the important thing to do, is when you show up. And even if you're blocked, that's a really good information, because every time you sit down, you're like, what's blocking me? But for a month, it was really difficult to make progress because I kept trying to outline, but I didn't have any of the nuanced details. I hadn't really explored what people wanted after book one and what was going on with the world and the people that I had created. And so I ended up, what broke me out of that was like, this combination of zero drafting and outlining. So I was like, okay, I can see this moment in the story. I'm just going to write it. And by writing it, I got some nuanced ideas out of it. And then I would be able to go back and put it into the outline and it became this back and forth of like, okay, I'm going to write a little bit. And so I have like twelve k right now and half of an outline and it's working really well. But the world would tell you that that's not the other.
[12:45] Rachel: Yeah, exactly.
[12:48] Emily: And so that voice in my head that was like, you must be a plotter, and you must plot kept me stuck for several weeks because I just wasn't letting myself put words on the page. And then, of course, I was like, okay, I'm going to zero draft so much of it. And I started to draft, and then I hit a point where it was like, moving forward with drafting isn't helping me. It would be more beneficial to go back and look at my outline and figure out what I've learned and wrap that in. And so if I had had a prescriptive, like, okay, if you're going to zero drop, you must zero drop the whole thing before you outline. That would have been restrictive, too. And so I just feel like there are so many ways our brains tell us our process has to look a certain way that keeps us stuck and keeps us safe. Right. Because it's trying to keep us from moving forward and making mistakes, or they're not even mistakes, making decisions we might in the future want to change. So what? Yeah, so, yeah, it's so interesting tackling another book after this first one is completely finished because this is the first time I'm doing that and just how much my process has changed and is different for this book. And I'm trying to build in the flexibility to just allow that to be the case and not fit myself in a box.
[14:08] Rachel: Yeah, well, we were kind of talking about this before we started recording, but there's like a joke that writers with multiple finished books will, every time they start a new book, be like, I have no idea how to write a book. I think, like Victoria Aviator jokes about, know, I think there's plenty of people that joke about it because it feels like that when you start something new and you're like, well, wait a second. And I think part of it is the brain space of starting a new project versus wrapping up an old project are totally different. But then I do think your process should be versatile. I think it changes depending on what project you're working on, what ideas have liminally been marinating in your head, and what phase of life you're in and what your life looks like outside of writing. I think all of those impact the process we have because process is literally just your brain. And so if your brain is dealing with different things or it learned a lot, and so now it looks at the world differently, of course it's going to change. It's going to feel different. It's not going to be the same. And I think that's the beauty of writing. I mean, I feel like that's the beauty of also being really aware. Like self aware, but also being, having a little bit of self confidence in, yeah, I'll figure this out. Of course, we're just going to follow the flow. We'll do it.
[15:48] Emily: That's what I've been trying to do lately is this idea of what sounds fun. So oftentimes I'll ask my clients, what do you have clarity on? Because there's always something that you can move forward with, and if you're facing down, like a big block, like a big plot hole or a question, I will oftentimes let that halt me because I'm like, oh, until I move forward and have the answer to this question, I am never going to know.
[16:13] Rachel: Can't do anything. Can't do anything.
[16:15] Emily: And it's like, well, there's all kinds of other aspects of my story that I can move forward on. And so if I choose one of those aspects and just go play with that, usually the answers to the holes and the questions come to me. I read, actually, I pulled this quote this morning and I didn't know how to use it, so I'm going to pull it now because it just really hit me. I'm doing the artist's way by Julia Cameron right now. And she says art is not about thinking something up. It's about the opposite, getting something down. The directions are important here. If we are trying to think something up, we are straining to reach for something that's just beyond our grasp. Up there in the stratosphere, where art lives on high, when we get something down, there is no strain. We're not doing. We're getting someone or something else is doing the doing. And she goes in to talk about, like, she's very big on the mystical nature of art, but I think there's something to be said for that. There's always pieces of your story that you do know, and if you focus on getting those down, the other answers will come. I think oftentimes when we get stuck in process, it's because we're like, okay, something is telling me I should do this next, but I'm not ready to do that. And so you're thinking something up, and you're, like, banging your head against a wall, trying to put a piece of to do something that's outside of what your process wants you to do. And so that was kind of a tangent, but I do think it's relevant in the sense of, like, if we can follow what sounds fun and we can follow what we do know about our stories and follow those paths of creativity, then you're going to get so far, I promise.
[18:01] Rachel: Yeah, it takes trust, and I think, too. One of the things that I've learned is, okay, what you just said, I'm going to build on it a little bit because you were saying the answers will come, and I think they'll come, but I also think it's you making the answers. Totally. They don't just drift on to you, but it feels that way for me sometimes. Because when I'm in that space where I don't have that answer, I feel like I have a limited amount of brain attention, and my process is better served if I can get my brain on one thing, feel good about it, and then once that's complete or in a satisfying place to me, and I'm not talking about the draft being finished, I'm just talking about, like, okay, I've scratched that itch. That's complete. I can move on to the next thing. I have more brain space, which then gives me the ability to create the answers. So sometimes it feels like, oh, I just need this answer to come to me. But that doesn't happen. You decide. You have to decide. But a lot of the times I don't have the mental energy to make that decision until I get other things finished first. And then once I can get those gears spinning and I can free up some brain space, then all of a sudden it feels like the decision came to me, or it feels like the answer came to me. But that wasn't what it was. It was that I finally had the brain space and the brain energy to put towards the decision that I needed to make. And then I felt confident about it versus being like, I have no idea what to do because my brain is being hijacked by this other part of the story. At some point, you have to make the decision. Yes.
[19:54] Emily: I love that you said that, because when I read that quote and it gut punched me, I was like, oh, man, I'm a hypocrite. Because we did that whole episode, remember, where I was like, your story doesn't live out in the atmosphere and you're trying to find it. You have to take the agency and make the decisions. But I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle, because oftentimes for me, you just described it as brain space to come up with the answer to decide what you want to do with whatever the hole is. But I also think if we just sit there and stare at the hole, it's going to take so long to decide what we want to do versus if you go and you explore the things that you've already decide. Right. Like, you go make 20 other decisions about other scenes in the story or other characters or backstory or whatever, oftentimes you find what you want to use to fill that hole in that process. Right. So for me, it was like, I'm trying to outline. I'm trying to outline. I'm trying to fill all these holes, and I can't make the things connect. But as soon as I started writing and people's voices were on the page and I was seeing what they were talking about, and I was seeing the details and the nuance on the page, I was like, oh, there's my answer. Right. That's what I want to do with that, because I actually have something tangible to pull answers from, something tangible to decide with, versus just, like, staring at a hole and just hoping the answer comes.
[21:20] Rachel: You can explore around and see what you find that can help fill that hole. And also, if you finish digging around it or finish building your castle around it, maybe then you'll have the ability to come up with the answer because you're not worried about the rest of what else is around it. Yeah. And it's not even, like, a binary of people that works one way or the other. I think that's why it's really important to be aware of what you're doing and why, and if you're feeling resistance where it's coming from and having the general attitude of adaptability and flexibility and self trust to be like, I'm going to figure this out, but maybe I'm going to take a different path this time around.
[22:14] Emily: Yeah, your process does not have to be defined. It can change. It can change.
[22:23] Rachel: And I think this is where I was also joking about this, too. I'm in my hard self trust era where I'm just, like, figuring it out. But that's what it feels like for most of this process. You're just trying to figure it out. But I think that also implies that there is a right answer. If I just figure it out, everything will be fixed. And it's more like, how are you going to ride the waves? Do you have your tools that you need to ride the waves? Do you have your wetsuit? Do you have your surfboard? Do you have everything you need to figure out how to tackle this thing in front of you? And that's where to circle back around. I think that's where craft knowledge can come in. That's where mindset can come in. Because I approached learning craft originally to figure out my process. But really, it was like I needed to have the mindset and I needed to have the theory and the knowledge of craft before I could really be able to have that self trust, before I could really be able to. How do I want to adapt this? And I also want to be clear, I'm not implying that craft knowledge solves all of your questions, because it doesn't.
[23:50] Emily: No, you have to just decide what you want to do with your story. Yeah, it's been really fun watching. I have a couple of clients who've been with me for a couple of books, and we're getting to this point where I am watching them just, like, pluck tools out of their toolbox when they're like, okay, I've hit this point in my outline or my draft where I don't understand this character, and then they'll just randomly send me a backstory scene. And it's like, the best because I'm like, that's great. You have the tools and you pulled them out when they were relevant to you. And I think that's how we approach craft is like, we want to give you all the tools. We want you to have a really robust toolbox and know how to use all those tools so that as you're developing your own process for every book, right. That you can just pull them out.
[24:39] Rachel: Yeah.
[24:39] Emily: And that's our approach in tenacious writing. We will not tell you there's one way to use our tools.
[24:43] Rachel: Yeah, there's not.
[24:46] Emily: Well, let's wrap up because we need to. I feel like we've been dancing around this topic of procrastination, and that is what we're bringing to you guys next.
[24:54] Rachel: Yay. Next episode. All right, if you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
[25:02] Emily: Sign up now to get our free email course. The magic of character arcs. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
[25:10] Rachel: Link in the show notes. We'll see you there.
[25:12] Emily: Woohoo. Bye.
