[00:13] Emily: Hey, writers. Welcome back to story magic, the podcast.
[00:16] Rachel: That will help you write a book.
[00:17] Emily: You'Re damn proud of.
[00:18] Rachel: I'm Rachel.
[00:19] Emily: And I'm Emily.
[00:20] Rachel: And today we want to talk about choosing the right pov for each of your scenes. So what does that mean? I'm talking now specifically about, like, if you're having more than one pov in your book.
[00:34] Emily: Point of view.
[00:35] Rachel: Point of view. Pov, point of view. So two plus point of views. If you have one, please listen, because this could be helpful, but this is really for you. If you have more than one point of view. So I have six point of views. Often a question that I face of, like, whose point of view am I going to write this next scene in?
[01:00] Emily: Get this question all the time from so many people with that situation.
[01:04] Rachel: Exactly. Because it feels like you have a piece of your story that you're trying to tell, and whose head should you be in as you're telling it? I feel like usually the question is, what's the best choice? The best choice is just something that's been chosen. So number one, just need to choose one. But number two, I do think there are some questions you can ask yourself to determine, like, what would be the strongest point of view or what would be the most impactful point of view to choose for a specific scene. So that's what we're going to talk about.
[01:40] Emily: Yeah, I love that you started with that, though, because ultimately you just have to choose.
[01:45] Rachel: Yeah.
[01:46] Emily: I've seen people spiral themselves into crazy holes trying to. They're like, I just don't know. And it's like, you just have to choose and it'll be fine. You're still going to tell the story. Everything will be fine. But there are things you can think.
[02:03] Rachel: About as you do decide, like questions.
[02:06] Emily: That can guide you to make that decision in a way that feels good to you.
[02:11] Rachel: Yeah. And you can always change it. So I want to give you an example, and I have two examples to talk about from my books that I'm writing right now. The first example I wrote in book one, and let me lay this scene, and then I can talk about why I actually changed it because it helped me see in the revisions phase that this was not the right point of view. So I was writing act three. I was at the gathering, the team beat, and I have six povs. Let me talk about two for a second. There's my main female character, who is the main character. She's like the crux of the story. It's her journey. And then the other pov that I'm going to talk about is the leader of this organization that she goes to. And the leader himself is pretty mysterious. He's been playing the characters like they're chess pieces. He basically has been doing a lot of stuff in the background to get us to this scene without telling other people. So we basically exist in this scene because of him and the choices he made in act one. So now we're here in this scene. This is the gathering, the team beat, which means that my main character is trying to get all these other people on her side. I originally wrote it from the leader's perspective. His name is Obi. I wrote that scene from Obi's perspective because I wanted to show Obi's thoughts as my main character is standing in front of him and being. Laying out her plan and being like, will you be on my team? And it was fun to write from Obi's perspective. It was like he had a lot of, ooh, I've got secret goals. I wanted it in his head because I wanted to highlight, basically, like, look how smart he is, and look how he's got plans, and he's really happy to see her. And he's, like, trying to take the temperature of the room and decide, are the other people going to agree, too? Then I finished the book, and I read it again, and I was like, that's not right. It's got to be from Leona's perspective, because it's really important that we see her tension of asking for help. It's really important we see her emotions of what led her to this plan in the first place. So I switched it. I switched it from Obi's perspective to Leona's perspective, because it was way more important to Leona's arc than it was to Obi's arc. It was way more important. Leona had way more at stake than did. Leona's decision to get here was way more important than Obi. I thought it would be more interesting in Obi's head, but it was more compelling from Leona's head. Love that. Yeah. So let me go into some of these questions, because this is how secondary in revisions I made this decision to switch.
[05:38] Emily: Let's do it.
[05:39] Rachel: Okay. So when you're trying to decide which point of view to use, I think first question to ask is, which character's arc has the most relevance or importance to the events of this scene? Who is this really about? Like, what decisions are going to be made? How does this scene push a specific character along their arc? Of change. Why is it important to this person?
[06:12] Emily: Basically, oftentimes that comes down to what they want out of the scene, right? Who has the biggest goals and who has to make the biggest choices? Because that person's having the biggest amount of change that's happening to them and around them or to them, and then the change that they're having on the world around them. And so being able to see them go through that internally can be really helpful in making sure that people are, your readers, are privy to their arc as it's unfolding.
[06:46] Rachel: Yeah, exactly. So on top of that, the next question is, who has the most to lose or gain from this scene? Who has the most at stake emotionally and physically? So in my example, like I said, this was the gathering, the team beat, but this was my main character's kind of last chance to get all these people on her side. This is her last chance to basically accomplish her goals, because if she didn't get them on her side, her goals would fall apart. When I had written it from Ob's point of view, I wanted to show a lot more intrigue, but it had, like, zero stakes because regardless of what he decided, he'd probably be in kind of the same spot. He wasn't going to lose his fortune, he wasn't going to be kicked out on the street. He didn't have the stake of potentially being killed. But from Leona's side of things, if she didn't get these guys on her side, she would be kicked out on the street. She would not be able to accomplish her goals. She would basically lose everything and have to start from square one. So there was way more at stake from Leona's perspective. And that is what made the scene more compelling versus, like, oh, I thought this would be intriguing and interesting from perspective.
[08:21] Emily: Gotcha. Love that.
[08:22] Rachel: Yeah. Okay, so third question to consider is what character revealing decision will our characters make in this scene, and what are the repercussions of that decision? Going back to what we were just talking about with importance and relevance and arcs, we want to know what kind of decision are they going to make and what are the repercussions of that decision? How is that going to push them along the trajectory of their arc, positive or negative, and who has the most important decision?
[09:01] Emily: Yeah, if you think about it, it's like whoever has the biggest decision has to weigh the biggest options, right? Like they have to weigh the consequences of their decisions. And whenever somebody makes a big decision with consequences on either side, they're showing something about who they are in why they decide to do that.
[09:27] Rachel: Right.
[09:28] Emily: And as a reader, you're only privy to why they've made that decision and seeing them make it, and that's conscious and subconscious reasons behind why they make it and why they value one option over the other if you're in their head. And so thinking through, even if it's just like, a chill scene where everybody's just hanging out.
[09:46] Rachel: Right.
[09:46] Emily: Thinking through who makes the biggest of the decisions can help you figure out who's going to be the most interesting person to be in their head, because you're going to get to see them do something interesting in character, revealing on the page.
[09:59] Rachel: Yes, exactly. Okay, now here's. Let's go back to Obi and Leona. Because on top of the intrigue that I wanted from this gathering, the team beat as the leader, it's Obie's decision whether Leona gets what she wants. Like, he is the one who decides, does this team get together because he's the leader? So when I originally wrote the scene, that's what I was aiming for, is, like, decision felt way more important. Leona's story, like, her in scene, is way more staky, way more emotional. But it's decision. Yeah. It's Obie's decision to agree to her gathering the team beat. Are they going to be a team? So what I actually decided to do was split this scene. I actually had the first part in Leona's perspective where, know, laying out everything, can we be a team? And she ends the scene. And then I created a brand new scene from Obi's perspective that shows the discussion and decision of whether they're going to accept her or not. Because I didn't want to lose. Like, it still felt really important that Obi was like, yes. And that Obi was able to see why. Yes, you got to see why. And you got to gauge the temperature of the other guys and see what does Obi think about everything that Leona just said? But it was much smaller. It's like a really tight scene, and it goes straight to Obi being like, all right, we need to discuss this. Is this what we want? Are we going to do it? And then they agree. Yes, they're going to do was actually. This question was super helpful for me to determine, like, actually, Obi's decision still needs to be on the page, but not from Leona's perspective in this scene. So I had to create, like, a brand new scene where I could still show Obi thinking and still play into some of the intrigue that he had. So not only did I. Yeah, it was really helpful, so I switched the povs. But then I also, like, I still need a little bit of you ob, so you get your own. I love it. Yeah. Okay, fourth question here is how long has it been since their last point of view? And here's what I mean with that question. So I have six people. If you keep them in a solid rotation, that's one pov every six scenes, and it's not awesome. It's a difficult balance. So I legitimately will look at when is the last time this character had a pov and how can I work them into the plot? Like, how can I work a scene in that still is important to their arc. All the other questions still get hit, still is important to the arc. They still have a lot to gain or lose emotionally. The stakes are still high. They still have a solid decision, but I need to bring them back into the mix. So what's the next plot point that I can include that would fit from their pov, and that actually helps me determine a lot about who goes who and what that looks like.
[13:34] Emily: Yeah. So I only have two povs in my. Well, three technically, if you include the backstory, but that's the same as one of the povs. But sorry, if you can hear the trash truck listeners, it is Monday morning trash day. Trash day. So we're just going to roll right over that. So I have two povs, and it's a romance. My romance isn't technically my a plot.
[14:12] Rachel: Should we pause?
[14:13] Emily: No, I think it's so loud.
[14:15] Rachel: Not that loud. Okay.
[14:20] Emily: Sorry, guys.
[14:20] Rachel: So two povs.
[14:22] Emily: It's a romance. The romance is a heavy piece of the story, but they are separate for the first part of the book, like, a lot of the time. And so when they're on the page together, I had to make sure that I was balancing whose head I was in when they were in romantic moments together or, like, potentially romantic tension moments so that I could see them interacting with each other, but from each person's head. So part of my decision making when I was going back through revisions was, like, looking at, okay, I have, like, four times when they're on the page together in act in the second quarter of my book. And so how can I make sure that I'm really showing each of their emotional, their emotional feelings about each other in each of their heads so I'm not just, like, in her head for the first quarter, and then we don't see what's going on in his head except when he's away from her.
[15:13] Rachel: Right.
[15:14] Emily: So I think it can be helpful to balance what kind of scene is it? And have we seen that kind of scene from each person's perspective?
[15:22] Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really great study, too, of multiple pov books. And I also think specifically romance. There's so much to be learned from romance books, and they often just get shit on of, like, romance is not as craft heavy. And I'm like, I disagree. I feel like a really successful romance book has a lot of moving pieces, got multiple povs. It's got romantic tension from each side, it's got emotional stakes on each side. And so if you pick up a book that has multiple povs, you can ask or you can evaluate, why is it this pov? What's going on? Did we see that from the other person, too? When was that? What is at stake here? Why are we in this person's head, and how do we find this balance? Ten out of ten recommend, like studying.
[16:24] Emily: Yeah, we're huge proponents. Huge proponents.
[16:26] Rachel: Studying in general, studying published works.
[16:28] Emily: But I think, yeah, POv is one of those easy things where when you're reading it, just ask yourself, why did the author choose to do this scene in this person's perspective? And you'll learn a lot that way. And I think, too, your last bullet here is, when in doubt, pick a character and write it from their pov. And I do think there's something to be said for, like, just choose. Right. But also just write it from both.
[16:46] Rachel: Right.
[16:47] Emily: If you're trying to decide between. And I also think sometimes that's a tool that can be used just in general to really make sure that there's depth to the scene because you understand what's going on from the other person's perspective. I actually just had a client. She was writing backstory to understand a relationship between two characters, one of whom is a pov character in her story, but one of whom is not. They're just a secondary character on the page, but she didn't really know them that well. And so for her, it was really helpful to write a moment between the two of them from each of their povs to really understand what was going on. So you can do that at any point in your story, in backstory, to just really understand people's perspectives. And I guarantee when you do that, you'll gut instinct to know which one to include.
[17:33] Rachel: Yeah. So here's my second example that I mentioned at the beginning. Now, this is from book two, so it's probably going to be vague because I don't want to give spoilers, but I had such a hard time with the catalyst of book two, I knew what the plan was going to be coming out of it, but I could not logistically figure out book two's catalyst. And essentially, there's a showdown between all of these characters, but Leona should not be there. And I really wanted the catalyst from Leona's perspective because she's the main character, because this is journey, but for other reasons, I really also did not want her there. So I had this plot event that I was really like, this plot event is the catalyst, but Leona's not there. And I was trying to figure out, how am I going to get Leona there? How is she going to participate? And then I was like, oh, this needs to happen from Caspian's point of view. He has just as much emotionally at stake. He has just as much to gain or lose. He has just as much important on his character arc. And as soon as I switched it to Caspian's point of view, I wrote it in a day and I was like, oh, well, that makes a lot more sense because he also has tons wrapped up emotionally in this. So I. I really was unsure. Is it going to work from Cass's perspective? Because he's not. Can I play this event off without seeing Leona's reaction to the big thing that happened? And I wrote it. I was like, I just have to try. I just got to write it. So I wrote it from Caspian's point of view. It came out super easily. It's on the page. And I was like, wow, actually, yeah. Because the only thing I needed from Leona in that moment was her reaction to what happened. That's a debate scene. That's not a catalyst. Got the. I got all the important stuff down from Caspian's point of view, and then the very next scene is Leona.
[20:01] Emily: And her reaction, well, if she wasn't there, then her catalyst is learning about, well, she's.
[20:07] Rachel: She's. She's watching on a. It got like, that was. The thing is, I couldn't have her physically there, so she needs it for sure. The event itself, like, the plot event outside of characters, needed to happen regardless. But physically, she couldn't be present. But she could see it happen.
[20:27] Emily: Yeah, no, it does. And this is such a beautiful example of, like, you got to do what works for you in your book. Right. Kraft would say, oh, you have to see the catalyst from the POV character's perspective. But sometimes you don't.
[20:40] Rachel: Sometimes I don't I'm going to do what I want. Yeah. And I might change, like, if I finish writing the book and I reread it and I'm like, I think this would work better. Maybe I'll change it in the future. Like, I changed it for Obi and Leona for their scene in book one, but without of writing it, like, just picking caspian and writing never, I would still be stuck. Exactly. Because now I've written the whole debate and we get all the juiciness that happens from the debate. It was just who's going to be there for the catalyst? Yeah.
[21:18] Emily: Awesome.
[21:21] Rachel: Go ahead. Anyway, to wrap us up, we've talked about things like character arcs and stakes and decisions. And so if that's feeling new to you from, like, a craft perspective, go learn about scene structure, which is where you're going to learn about scene goals and scene decisions.
[21:43] Emily: We have a blog we can give you guys, actually.
[21:45] Rachel: We have a blog. We have a podcast episode intro. Yeah. Intro to scene structure, episode 19. So we will link the blog in the show notes and also go listen to episode 19 and then character arcs. Everything we do has time.
[22:07] Emily: Sign up for magic character arcs.
[22:09] Rachel: Exactly. Like, get on our magic of character arcs course, because that's going to teach you everything you need to know about character arcs.
[22:18] Emily: We're about to tell you about it in the outro, so pay attention if you usually skip it.
[22:24] Rachel: Yeah. So go check about that. And you can also read through plenty of blogs about it.
[22:30] Emily: And don't worry about it too much. You guys just go with write it from both. If you're trying to choose between two and pick the one that's the most fun. Because that's the one your reader will think is the most fun. Exactly.
[22:41] Rachel: Oh, last point. Okay, last thing. What you just said, what you think the reader thinks is most fun. This triggered for me, so I have gotten specific pushback on this before. Not pushback, a different perspective. Why don't you write it from the perspective of someone who has the least at stakes and can just observe and like, like, in that, in this scenario, the. The question was like someone who can just basically eat a bag of popcorn and, like, watch the drama unfold. And I don't recommend that because it might seem like super fun to write because you are watching all the drama unfold, but from a show perspective and from an engaging the reader perspective, we really need to have those emotional stakes in the head of the person who's feeling them. It's not as effective to choose a character who can just watch the madness happen because they're not feeling the madness.
[23:41] Emily: Yeah, they're not emotionally invested, which means your reader won't be as emotionally invested.
[23:46] Rachel: Exactly. So I caution against that. If you do make that choice, just make it intentionally. Like we have said, you can make whatever choices you want, there's no rules, but just make it intentionally. And I would think really hard about the choice of, oh, well, they're just observing, so that means the reader can just watch the madness unfold. Be like, well, no, it would be more effective if the reader watched the madness unfold from the perspective of the person feeling the madness and having the impact on them last. Yeah, wanted to make sure. That's great.
[24:18] Emily: No, that's super great. Awesome. If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
[24:29] Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course. The magic of character. After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
[24:37] Emily: Link in the show notes. We'll see you there. Bye.
